Could anyone of XF devs please answer me why Verdana is deprecated as the main article font since XenForo 1?

ShikiSuen

ShikiSuen

Well-known member
I personally think that switching off Verdana (and use other sans-serif fonts instead) is a good decision.
But I want to hear voices from official devs that why Verdana is not considered by them.
Maybe they have different reasons, but it worths being heard.

Informations in this thread will be used as a reference helping me persuade VI-Control moderate teams to give up using Verdana as the article font on non-Windows platforms, regardless that official reasons may be different than mine.

P.S.: Maybe I am really bad at persuading someone.

Reference (since #119):
vi-control.net

Forum was upgraded tonight! - Page 6 - VI-CONTROL

Hi everyone, First - wishing you all a decent holiday time with friends and family in whatever format you are allowed to. It's been a year and it's going to be another one soon. Second - we have upgraded the forum tonight, and all features. Everything should be fine. IF you notice...
vi-control.net vi-control.net

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VBulletin 3.x uses Verdana for postbits (articles) by default. The same dev team deprecated Verdana since XF1 and use Georgia instead (if I remembered correctly). Helvetica Neue on macOS and Segoe UI on Windows is the default settings for XF2.
 
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tajhay said:
Whoa.

Chill dude.
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Being forced to read everything in Verdana (looks terrible on macOS) is why I cannot chill down.
Right now I found the Stylus extension for Chrome, and it can help me chill down a little by overriding Verdana to Helvetica Neue.
 
I don’t think there’s more to say besides we have always picked the font that fits the aesthetic that we want. As software designers and site owners are very much entitled to do.

We have no particular reason I can state that explains why we have not used Vedana. We just don't.
 
Chris D said:
I don’t think there’s more to say besides we have always picked the font that fits the aesthetic that we want. As software designers and site owners are very much entitled to do.

We have no particular reason I can state that explains why we have not used Vedana. We just don't.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing your opinions here.

My reasonings can be non-aesthetic but functional. I am experienced in discussing similar topics regarding how to choose a good UI fonts for Chinese and Japanese texts, and I believe that Latin fonts has similarities.

Helvetica Neue does a good job for webpage typography in non-CJK languages. I previously discouraged Helvetica Neue due to its line height control (together with common Chinese / Japanese fonts being fallbacked to), plus its non-availability by default on Windows and Linux. ClearType hinting on Windows reshaped how fonts look like from their natural lookings, and I am afraid that's why Verdana was welcomed by Windows users.

Nevertheless, to hear or not to hear is their freedom which is out of my perimeter of interference.
 
Chris D said:
I don’t think there’s more to say besides we have always picked the font that fits the aesthetic that we want. As software designers and site owners are very much entitled to do.

We have no particular reason I can state that explains why we have not used Vedana. We just don't.
Click to expand...

I have tested Helvetica Neue on the forum in question ^ but it wasn't an improvement, on the contrary.

I do notice on Xenforo's forum the following message-body code:

Code: 
.message-body {
    margin: 10px 0;
    font-family: 'Segoe UI','Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Roboto,Oxygen,Ubuntu,Cantarell,'Fira Sans','Droid Sans',sans-serif;
}

Is there a noticeable reading clarity on MacOS, that Verdana does not achieve?

Thanks Chris,

Andre
 
creativeforge said:
I have tested Helvetica Neue on the forum in question ^ but it wasn't an improvement, on the contrary.

I do notice on Xenforo's forum the following message-body code:

Code: 
.message-body {
    margin: 10px 0;
    font-family: 'Segoe UI','Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Roboto,Oxygen,Ubuntu,Cantarell,'Fira Sans','Droid Sans',sans-serif;
}

Is there a noticeable reading clarity on MacOS, that Verdana does not achieve?

Thanks Chris,

Andre
Click to expand...
Windows does not ship Helvetica and Helvetica Neue by default.
If you are using Windows without manual installation of Helvetica (Neue) (regardless nulled / hacked font copies or your purchased font data), all CSS definitions of Helvetica (Neue) are likely to be automatically switched to Arial by default in most cases. Your screenshot looks like Arial to me:

1609512226830.png


Even if you manually installed Helvetica on Windows, modifications towards Windows Registry font links may be necessary.

Segoe UI on Windows is ClearType hinted by default, making its looking acceptable on webpages (similar to what Helvetica Neue looks like on macOS). // To me, Segoe UI on macOS is not a good font for UI at all, except reading long paragraphs.

This is Helvetica Neue on macOS:
1609512300464.png


This is Verdana on macOS:
1609512321236.png


(Pay attention to the difference of your reading speed with these two fonts.)
 
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I need to correct my statement regarding how the small-letter "i" gets rendered using Verdana on macOS.

If for dark font color and light background, it looks hardly distinguishable from the small letter "l" unless being presented together.

If for light font color and dark background, this issue doesn't happen.
 
If I understand correctly, if I set up Helvetica Neue as the main font, followed by Verdana, it would automatically serve Helvetica Neue on MacOS, and Verdana on Windows?

e5f4e28709b85870016b4a6af5cf2436.webp
 
creativeforge said:
If I understand correctly, if I set up Helvetica Neue as the main font, followed by Verdana, it would automatically serve Helvetica Neue on MacOS, and Verdana on Windows?

View attachment 243250
Click to expand...
Yes (as what I suggested initially). My tests on Windows 10 LTSC 2019 just proved its correctness.

Exceptions can only happen on Windows if the following special condition is met:
Helvetica Neue is force-installed on Windows by the brower guest.
Click to expand...

I really appreciate your understanding at this step.

1609515714370.png
 
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ShikiSuen said:
Yes (as what I suggested initially). Exceptions can only happen on Windows if both of the following special conditions are met:
1) Helvetica Neue is force-installed on Windows by the brower guest.
2) The browser guest's Windows system is modified in Windows Registry FontLink Settings (and anywhere else necessary) to stop Windows from "auto-replacing Helvetica Neue to Arial".

I really appreciate your understanding at this step.
Click to expand...

If you had explained this to start with, we wouldn't have wasted 2 days going back and forth while you got upset and disrespectful.

I'm going to implement the solution I just proposed ^ because it makes sense to me.

Regards,

Andre
 
creativeforge said:
If you had explained this to start with, we wouldn't have wasted 2 days going back and forth while you got upset and disrespectful.

I'm going to implement the solution I just proposed ^ because it makes sense to me.

Regards,

Andre
Click to expand...
Thanks for your accommodation. My sincere apologies for your bad experience.
 
Correction to my previous replies: Let me remove the 2) condition posted above.
According to the test I performed just now, the 2) condition doesn't happen with "Helvetica Neue" on Windows 10 LTSC 2019. (It only happens with the old "Helvetica".)
I have no awareness of how later Windows 10 builds behave.
 
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Idea sharing complete. My case is over. As Chris said, "As software designers and site owners are very much entitled to do."
 
creativeforge said:
🙄
Click to expand...
In case you are still confused with something, let me state it clear:

My initial requests are only "an alternative choice" which doesn't have to be set as default settings for all guests.

It is just the existence of Stylus extension that makes individual users like me to bypass these hassles by ourselves individually. That's why this is not a request anymore.

By the way, Verdana is more legible on iPhone (and similar small-screen handheld devices) comparing to Helvetica Neue. However, the iOS system built-in "SF Pro Text" is better than Verdana. "SF Pro Text" is less condensed than Helvetica Neue. Note that San Francisco family (including "SF Pro Text", "SF Pro Display", "New York", "SF Compact", "SF Mono") are not installable on non-Apple operating systems.
 
ShikiSuen said:
In case you are still confused with something, let me state it clear:

My initial requests are only "an alternative choice" which doesn't have to be set as default settings for all guests.

It is just the existence of Stylus extension that makes individual users like me to bypass these hassles by ourselves individually. That's why this is not a request anymore.

By the way, Verdana is more legible on iPhone (and similar small-screen handheld devices) comparing to Helvetica Neue. However, the iOS system built-in "SF Pro Text" is better than Verdana. "SF Pro Text" is less condensed than Helvetica Neue. Note that San Francisco family (including "SF Pro Text", "SF Pro Display", "New York", "SF Compact", "SF Mono") are not installable on non-Apple operating systems.
Click to expand...
I'm not confused. Not at all. I'm rolling my eyes. I was up all night dealing with this "non-request." Please, no need to explain anything anymore. No changes were needed, although I've added Helvetica Neue trying to address any MacOS issue. End of story.

Regards,

Andre
 
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