Yes, the CSS is still a work in progress.
Beta 2 Style Properties Feedback
- Thread starter XenForo
- Start date
ijeffers
Active member
Overall I quite like the layout of the Style Properties. In general the system is fairly easy and intuitive and although I realise there are still bits to be added (found the TODO section when I was trying to find the muted stylevar today) I quite like the granularity of control that is available but at the same time it isn't overly excessive in general.
There are some exceptions though and I'll fully admit that I haven't played with every little property yet, but if we look at the Sidebar Style Properties, is there any need for User List Username, User List Invisible Username, User List Followed Username? While yes all 3 need styled, would it not make sense for a little bit of consolidation and have just a User List Username Section, with those 3 Properties within especially since they only have 1 control and then custom css for each section (unless there's more to add?)?
At the same time the two Mini-Me options have me wondering if we need both. I can see the need for both, but wonder whether all the properties and controls are needed for both of them at the same time?
There are some exceptions though and I'll fully admit that I haven't played with every little property yet, but if we look at the Sidebar Style Properties, is there any need for User List Username, User List Invisible Username, User List Followed Username? While yes all 3 need styled, would it not make sense for a little bit of consolidation and have just a User List Username Section, with those 3 Properties within especially since they only have 1 control and then custom css for each section (unless there's more to add?)?
At the same time the two Mini-Me options have me wondering if we need both. I can see the need for both, but wonder whether all the properties and controls are needed for both of them at the same time?
Erik
Well-known member
I'm not going to take the time to read through this entire thread, but I thought I would quickly offer my opinions, having just gone through designing and coding a fairly complex style for XenForo (linky).
The purpose of style properties should be to simplify configuring styles for forum administrators who aren't generally familiar with CSS. With the current implementation, I find that you are trying too hard (or perhaps this is your goal, which I find misguided) to transfer most or all of the CSS into Style Properties so they are "easy to access." This, to me, seems pointless, forced, and unnatural. As a theme developer, I much prefer to work directly with the CSS. In fact, I never once touched a style property while developing my theme, except to add/change the colors in the color pallet. When I came across a defined style property in the CSS templates, I just modified the CSS and let the style property update itself. Thank god the CSS for the style properties is still in the templates, otherwise I might have gone mad finding a reference in the template, then having to jump to the style property interface, then jump back to the CSS, etc.
Admins who don't understand CSS aren't going to understand the contrived style properties system. This is somewhat alarming:
Any administrator who can understand that, how the box model works, how inheritance works, why there are two properties for the Mini-Me image ("image" and "container"), the syntax of the box-shadow property, etc. could just as likely edit the CSS templates directly. Everyone else is just going to be confused and overwhelmed, in my opinion.
In my opinion, theme developers should leverage the Style Properties system to make configuring their style easy for forum administrators, creating their own style properties specific to their style that layout clear options for the theme (options like the image path for a background image for the page, checkboxes to disable/enable sections of the theme or certain features, textboxes to customize strings of text that may appear in the theme, additional colors used in the theme, etc.). If you want to get the idea of what I'm thinking of, check out the "theme options" that the Theme Foundry builds into its WordPress themes. This is the kind of configuration I'm talking about that theme developers could create by leveraging the Style Properties system. It's simple, intuitive, but still flexible.
Style properties that control specific aspects of the CSS and/or general style can still be there, but I think getting more and more specific with more and more style properties is the wrong way to go. I think it will only end up confusing most users while benefiting far fewer (it only really benefits those that are knowledgeable enough to understand some basic CSS concepts, but unwilling to edit the actual CSS - these people are the minority, in my opinion. Most admins are either going to have virtually no knowledge about CSS or HTML, or they'll be comfortable enough to edit the CSS directly once they know what/where to edit).
TL;DR: Theme developers should use the Style Properties system to create additional Style Properties that are simple and intuitive so that the theme can be configured by your average, non-CSS-knowledgeable forum administrator, and theme developers should work directly with the CSS when developing themes. Style Properties should be kept to a minimum to keep the system simple and intuitive.
The purpose of style properties should be to simplify configuring styles for forum administrators who aren't generally familiar with CSS. With the current implementation, I find that you are trying too hard (or perhaps this is your goal, which I find misguided) to transfer most or all of the CSS into Style Properties so they are "easy to access." This, to me, seems pointless, forced, and unnatural. As a theme developer, I much prefer to work directly with the CSS. In fact, I never once touched a style property while developing my theme, except to add/change the colors in the color pallet. When I came across a defined style property in the CSS templates, I just modified the CSS and let the style property update itself. Thank god the CSS for the style properties is still in the templates, otherwise I might have gone mad finding a reference in the template, then having to jump to the style property interface, then jump back to the CSS, etc.
Admins who don't understand CSS aren't going to understand the contrived style properties system. This is somewhat alarming:
Any administrator who can understand that, how the box model works, how inheritance works, why there are two properties for the Mini-Me image ("image" and "container"), the syntax of the box-shadow property, etc. could just as likely edit the CSS templates directly. Everyone else is just going to be confused and overwhelmed, in my opinion.
In my opinion, theme developers should leverage the Style Properties system to make configuring their style easy for forum administrators, creating their own style properties specific to their style that layout clear options for the theme (options like the image path for a background image for the page, checkboxes to disable/enable sections of the theme or certain features, textboxes to customize strings of text that may appear in the theme, additional colors used in the theme, etc.). If you want to get the idea of what I'm thinking of, check out the "theme options" that the Theme Foundry builds into its WordPress themes. This is the kind of configuration I'm talking about that theme developers could create by leveraging the Style Properties system. It's simple, intuitive, but still flexible.
Style properties that control specific aspects of the CSS and/or general style can still be there, but I think getting more and more specific with more and more style properties is the wrong way to go. I think it will only end up confusing most users while benefiting far fewer (it only really benefits those that are knowledgeable enough to understand some basic CSS concepts, but unwilling to edit the actual CSS - these people are the minority, in my opinion. Most admins are either going to have virtually no knowledge about CSS or HTML, or they'll be comfortable enough to edit the CSS directly once they know what/where to edit).
TL;DR: Theme developers should use the Style Properties system to create additional Style Properties that are simple and intuitive so that the theme can be configured by your average, non-CSS-knowledgeable forum administrator, and theme developers should work directly with the CSS when developing themes. Style Properties should be kept to a minimum to keep the system simple and intuitive.
Erik
Well-known member
I've done this a tiny bit with my theme, and I don't really see a problem with it. CSS is CSS, the forum software isn't going to break if suddenly you start defining and using new classes or using CSS "differently" than how XenForo uses it. You'll just have to be sure to keep your theme updated if you are using some of XenForo's original CSS that gets updated with the software.
I'm going back and reading through the thread after I posted my large response. I think we are on the same page. This is pretty much how I envision the Style Property system should be.
anotheralias
Well-known member
Well that's great for you,
but for those of us who aren't "generally familiar with" CSS, this is a fabulous learning tool. So what if I don't know what "box shadow" means - this way I can throw it into a property and see what happens, which is much easier than hunting down a specific piece of CSS in a template - especially when I don't know what I'm looking for. And I see the results immediately, which gives me the visual cue, which is the only way I ever learn code because I don't have a natural ability to visualize it by looking at the text, and I never get anywhere with manuals.In fact, this would be a fabulous piece of standalone software for teaching CSS.
Ryan
Well-known member
anotheralias - XenForo is forum software, not a CSS learning tool. We can't sacrifice usability in XF in order to help its customers learn CSS. That's crazy talk.
I tend to side with Erik on this one. The Style Properties, in my opinion, are far too numerous right now. They need to be implemented on a much more macro and wide-breadth scale to cater to the non-technical admins who don't have time to bother themselves learning CSS. It does take a good bit of CSS knowledge to use the Style Properties as is, which kind of defeats the purpose of them in my opinion. It may even be a disservice to your customers - because what will happen is that they will spend just as much time learning style properties as they would learning CSS itself, and when they are all done, they will know the style properties well but still won't know or understand how to navigate CSS itself. Why let them waste their time using a complicated Style Properties system when they could just be learning true CSS which will benefit them in the long term? The way to fix this is to "dumb down" the Style Properties so that any old webmaster can pick them up and make changes without the learning curve and trial and error like anotheralias has mentioned. The Style Properties should be so easy and straightforward that for a non-technical user, there is really no question as to which property does what.
I will say that I'm super excited that I can ignore Style Properties all together, edit the CSS templates directly, and those changes are then picked up by the Style Properties. If you do leave the complex Style Properties in place, then please, please, please continue to let Style Properties changes be picked up by CSS and CSS changes be picked up by Style Properties. This is a must for skin distributors. With this in place, I personally am okay with anything you do to Style Properties. As long as you continue to give us direct access to CSS and any changes we make to CSS are ported over to the appropriate Style Property, I'm a happy camper. For your non-technical users, though, I'm not sure that the current direction of Style Properties is best for them.
I tend to side with Erik on this one. The Style Properties, in my opinion, are far too numerous right now. They need to be implemented on a much more macro and wide-breadth scale to cater to the non-technical admins who don't have time to bother themselves learning CSS. It does take a good bit of CSS knowledge to use the Style Properties as is, which kind of defeats the purpose of them in my opinion. It may even be a disservice to your customers - because what will happen is that they will spend just as much time learning style properties as they would learning CSS itself, and when they are all done, they will know the style properties well but still won't know or understand how to navigate CSS itself. Why let them waste their time using a complicated Style Properties system when they could just be learning true CSS which will benefit them in the long term? The way to fix this is to "dumb down" the Style Properties so that any old webmaster can pick them up and make changes without the learning curve and trial and error like anotheralias has mentioned. The Style Properties should be so easy and straightforward that for a non-technical user, there is really no question as to which property does what.
I will say that I'm super excited that I can ignore Style Properties all together, edit the CSS templates directly, and those changes are then picked up by the Style Properties. If you do leave the complex Style Properties in place, then please, please, please continue to let Style Properties changes be picked up by CSS and CSS changes be picked up by Style Properties. This is a must for skin distributors. With this in place, I personally am okay with anything you do to Style Properties. As long as you continue to give us direct access to CSS and any changes we make to CSS are ported over to the appropriate Style Property, I'm a happy camper. For your non-technical users, though, I'm not sure that the current direction of Style Properties is best for them.
dutchbb
Well-known member
Largely agree with both Erik & Ryan (see #55). But it might not be feasable at this point to completely change the functionality/look of the SP in version 1. That's why I think they should just be kept basic. And for a next version perhaps try to do something that makes it both easy to use for everyone, and powerful enough to change a lot of the details.
Ryan
Well-known member
You know, I just had an interesting thought...after going back and looking at the post (#55) you referred to, dutchbb...
It seems that those of us who think the Style Properties are over-complicated are the same people who just prefer to work directly in CSS templates, and we are perfectly content with working in CSS.
Those who prefer not to work in CSS actually do seem to like the numerous/complicated Style Properties. These people prefer to work there, not in CSS, and so far, they seem happy there.
Seems as if everybody is happy in their own environment, and if that's the case, I guess just keep doing what you guys are doing. Some of us here (who understand/know CSS) seem to think that the Style Properties won't work for non-technical users, but then again, the non-technical users are sitting here telling us they do work...so what do we know?
It seems that those of us who think the Style Properties are over-complicated are the same people who just prefer to work directly in CSS templates, and we are perfectly content with working in CSS.
Those who prefer not to work in CSS actually do seem to like the numerous/complicated Style Properties. These people prefer to work there, not in CSS, and so far, they seem happy there.
Seems as if everybody is happy in their own environment, and if that's the case, I guess just keep doing what you guys are doing. Some of us here (who understand/know CSS) seem to think that the Style Properties won't work for non-technical users, but then again, the non-technical users are sitting here telling us they do work...so what do we know?
I think you hit the nail on the head there.Seems as if everybody is happy in their own environment, and if that's the case, I guess just keep doing what you guys are doing. Some of us here (who understand/know CSS) seem to think that the Style Properties won't work for non-technical users, but then again, the non-technical users are sitting here telling us they do work...so what do we know?
A lot of work went into the bi-directional nature of the style properties system, whereby the values of CSS style properties are actually output into the CSS templates, and editing the CSS within @property tags writes back into the style property. That work was done because we wanted to balance the ability to have what is effectively a CSS-writer in the form of the style properties editor, with the ability to edit the CSS directly, which is much faster for an experienced author.
For my part, I spend little to no time at all in the style property editor, preferring to do all my work in the raw CSS apart from colour changes and minor tweaks.
dutchbb
Well-known member
To be sure you'd have to ask a larger group, but yeah you have a point about the differences in perception. Maybe the way they do it currently isn't that bad in general. The main problem I see though is in the long lists which have no visual reference and can be hard to understand for people with very little experience. Again, a few XF members may not represent a large enough group to come to any conclusion on this matter.You know, I just had an interesting thought...after going back and looking at the post (#55) you referred to, dutchbb...
It seems that those of us who think the Style Properties are over-complicated are the same people who just prefer to work directly in CSS templates, and we are perfectly content with working in CSS.
Those who prefer not to work in CSS actually do seem to like the numerous/complicated Style Properties. These people prefer to work there, not in CSS, and so far, they seem happy there.
Seems as if everybody is happy in their own environment, and if that's the case, I guess just keep doing what you guys are doing. Some of us here (who understand/know CSS) seem to think that the Style Properties won't work for non-technical users, but then again, the non-technical users are sitting here telling us they do work...so what do we know?
Peggy
Well-known member
This I do agree with. Even for people with experience, it's a challenge.
However, I do feel that Kier has worked with this, and it is easier to find what you need, and also easier to distinguish what controls what, and where, than it was when XF was first released in alpha.
anotheralias
Well-known member
Wow, you just can't help yourself, can you? I guess I'm lucky you didn't throw in a 
. Yes, it is forum software - which people will have to learn how to style for themselves, even us great unwashed masses who don't comprehend CSS as completely and totally as you holy skinners. So what's better: that we learn it in the software, or that we clog up the support forum asking "how do I change the color of the navbar?" "How do I get rid of this red line?" "Where in the hell do I change this font color?"Ryan said:
No, because like you, I can completely ignore them and work directly in the base CSS if I want to. And if I don't want to, I can use Style Properties. And notice that I'm not demanding that you confine yourself to Style Properties - I am completely fine with you styling your forum in whatever way that works best for you.
Shelley
Well-known member
I personally like the direction that the beta2 is taking as it appeals to both novice and experienced users. The style properties are a great way to expand upon and have those novices learn (imo) more quickly and familiarising themselves with css and then when they want to make major changes they can get their hands dirty in the templates and alter the css directly.
I say, continue the path your going on and you won't go wrong as it's appealing to a wide spectrum of users both novice, intermediate and experienced.
I say, continue the path your going on and you won't go wrong as it's appealing to a wide spectrum of users both novice, intermediate and experienced.
Ruven
Well-known member
I think this is easy to compromise.
Leave Style Properties very basic. Allow admins to be able to customize the styles they install with large sweeping color palette switches. Thats a great feature.
Hide things like additional CSS, most of the padding type options, and most of the smaller elements which should be able to be automatically color controlled by the palette feature.
Then implement a Style Properties Advanced toggle that opens up all of the other elements and even more advanced CSS styling options.
You can enable the toggle to allow certain admins the ability to use the advanced properties or just the basic ones. Or to enable it as default instead of the Basic version being default.
Then allow the admins to be able to toggle advanced properties at the style level.
So if an admin wants to just come in and do a quick recolor he doesnt need to be bothered with a myriad of options. Just the most basic ones to get in quickly. But you can then open up the advanced features for more fine tuning later.
That way you can create multiple styles for your users right off the bat real quickly, and then fine tune them as the days go by.
Advanced properties can also be toggled at the Style Property Group level.
So if im using Basic style properties and im in the Forum List group and want to see more options real quick... i just click a handy toggle which appears right then and there and a magically delicious list of advanced properties for that group show up.
So you have a great style customization tool for beginners in the Style Properties.
You allow professionals with legit CSS experience to do things their way by editing the templates.
And you let us folks in between use the forum software as a learning tool that is sort of inbetween Style Properties and raw CSS with Advanced Style Properties.
These seem to be the 3 kinds of admins we have here.
Leave Style Properties very basic. Allow admins to be able to customize the styles they install with large sweeping color palette switches. Thats a great feature.
Hide things like additional CSS, most of the padding type options, and most of the smaller elements which should be able to be automatically color controlled by the palette feature.
Then implement a Style Properties Advanced toggle that opens up all of the other elements and even more advanced CSS styling options.
You can enable the toggle to allow certain admins the ability to use the advanced properties or just the basic ones. Or to enable it as default instead of the Basic version being default.
Then allow the admins to be able to toggle advanced properties at the style level.
So if an admin wants to just come in and do a quick recolor he doesnt need to be bothered with a myriad of options. Just the most basic ones to get in quickly. But you can then open up the advanced features for more fine tuning later.
That way you can create multiple styles for your users right off the bat real quickly, and then fine tune them as the days go by.
Advanced properties can also be toggled at the Style Property Group level.
So if im using Basic style properties and im in the Forum List group and want to see more options real quick... i just click a handy toggle which appears right then and there and a magically delicious list of advanced properties for that group show up.
So you have a great style customization tool for beginners in the Style Properties.
You allow professionals with legit CSS experience to do things their way by editing the templates.
And you let us folks in between use the forum software as a learning tool that is sort of inbetween Style Properties and raw CSS with Advanced Style Properties.
These seem to be the 3 kinds of admins we have here.
