Articles 11 & 13 from the EU Copyright Directive

Just to clarify that the above letter from Tim Berners-Lee which was written on the 12 of June 2018, on 12 of September was almost completely ignored, as well as any other letters of the sort. That is what initiated the #SaveYourInternet movement. In less than 2 months the directive will finalise.
 
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and says he’s OK with killing Youtube..."
Isn't it basically that if Youtube cannot protect artist's rights, then it should be shut down?

I'm all for that, having had so much of my work just ripped off and uploaded there and total smokescreen and/or inaction when asking for stuff to be taken down. If they can can't make it work so that copyrights are respected, then they should be shut down.

The whole concept is concerning, it's like the police allowing thieves to enter your house and steal your stuff and walk down the street with it. Then only take action if you ask them to get it back for you.

That's a crazy idea, just stop the theft in the first place.
 
Isn't it basically that if Youtube cannot protect artist's rights, then it should be shut down?

I'm all for that, having had so much of my work just ripped off and uploaded there and total smokescreen and/or inaction when asking for stuff to be taken down. If they can can't make it work so that copyrights are respected, then they should be shut down.

The whole concept is concerning, it's like the police allowing thieves to enter your house and steal your stuff and walk down the street with it. Then only take action if you ask them to get it back for you.

That's a crazy idea, just stop the theft in the first place.
I think you're overlooking the obvious fact that millions of people make their living, or at least partially make their living, by creating (legal) content on Youtube and other online platforms, and the very likely consequences, even if unintentional, of these laws on all those people - not to mention all the millions of people who enjoy and often derive practical benefits from all that created content. Because there's no f-ing way that filtering on that kind of massive scale is not going to have a lot of unintentional consequences, and if you think otherwise you're living in la-la land. But heh, I guess if it benefits you, then good for you.
 
I think you're overlooking the obvious fact that millions of people make their living, or at least partially make their living, by creating (legal) content on Youtube
I haven't overlooked that, and I'd like to see them still carry on doing that, and we can all benefit from it. All I'm saying is Youtube needs to be responsible for not allowing the illegal activity to take place.

ie, does Youtube need the illegal activity to function?
 
I haven't overlooked that, and I'd like to see them still carry on doing that, and we can all benefit from it. All I'm saying is Youtube needs to be responsible for not allowing the legal activity to take place.

ie, does Youtube need the illegal activity to function?
Well, now I'd argue that you're overlooking/underestimating the scale of Youtube, and that depending on purely human intervention also isn't very practical. More than 300 hours of video are uploaded to YouTube every minute. Take a second to think about that. And of course they already have systems in place, including automated ones, that see perfectly legal content getting flagged and taken down every day; which, as you can imagine, is very frustrating for content creators - not to mention the fact that it often costs them money while they're waiting to get their content reinstated because of bogus copyright claims. Imagine how much worse life could get for them with this new system of brainless, automated filters in place. Only takes a little imagination.

EDIT: And if you're thinking that what I seem to be suggessing is that we allow things to stay the way they are, I'll just add that, yes, I'd rather keep the systems already in place, even if they're not perfect for everyone, than see a new one implemented that makes things even worse for almost everyone. And with these new laws in effect, don't be surprised if there's not also a lot of unintentional negative consequences for people like yourself. You only have to consider for a moment all the DMCA takedown notices that are sent out all the time by copyright holders and the agencies that work for them for their own works. And it's largely because they're using automated systems. o_O
 
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And of course they already have systems in place, including automated ones, that see perfectly legal content getting flagged and taken down every day; which, as you can imagine, is very frustrating for content creators
Do you have a reliable source for this? Even so I think when people are given a free platform it’s reasonable that they may sometimes need to prove they are using it legally.

In fact I do know of some cases like that, has actually happened to me I think.

But the big problem is so many people think they are just somehow entitled to use film, audio, sheet music, images either because they just don’t know the law or they have some vague notion of “fair use”
 
Do you have a reliable source for this? Even so I think when people are given a free platform it’s reasonable that they may sometimes need to prove they are using it legally.

In fact I do know of some cases like that, has actually happened to me I think.

But the big problem is so many people think they are just somehow entitled to use film, audio, sheet music, images either because they just don’t know the law or they have some vague notion of “fair use”
You can start with this:


I'm not saying the current system is perfectly fair for everyone, I'm just saying I don't want to see things made much worse for almost everyone who uses the internet in a misguided effort to protect the interests of a relative few.


EDIT: Here's another article that deals more specifically with copyright:


Note this line: "The algorithm errs on the side of false positives: The site even took down computer-generated static because it sounded like an existing video of static. "

LoL, and you have to laugh at this update at the bottom of the article:

Update 1/25/2018 at 10:50am ET: This post was originally illustrated with an embedded bootleg episode of Naruto, but YouTube took it down:
 
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You can start with this:

Thanks, good article but nothing to do with copyright at all, I'm glad they remove videos that incite violence are not safe for children etc.
EDIT: Here's another article that deals more specifically with copyright:

Yes I saw the phrase "The algorithm errs on the side of false positives:" Presumably the program cannot be 100% correct and I would agree erring on the side of false positives is better, but then I would. I can understand people thinking otherwise. It's like the old law argument"better to lock up one innocent man than let 100 murderers and rapists go free..." Will always be an interesting discussion of law and ethics.

The stain thing is hilarious of course, I believe there was also copyright infringement of John cage 4'33" (which is four minutes and thirty three seconds of silence)

However this is small stuff compared to the protection of artists and producers livelihoods just because someone wants a Kenny G track in the background while their dog looks cute.

LoL, and you have to laugh at this update at the bottom of the article:

Obviously the bootleg episode should have been removed, what's your point there? You know what "bootleg" means surely?
 
Obviously the bootleg episode should have been removed, what's your point there? You know what "bootleg" means surely?
My point was that it worked as intended, proving the piece's assertion that Youtube's copyright system is on the whole pretty effective, even though that was not of course the intention. Lighten up, man. :)
 
However this is small stuff compared to the protection of artists and producers livelihoods just because someone wants a Kenny G track in the background while their dog looks cute.

Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't want to see the internet I love get bogged down under draconian laws, allowing mostly only big business with big pockets to succeed - which I see as the likely outcome of all this up the road a bit - because you are upset that some kid or mom in east bum-f**k isn't properly compensating Kenny G for their doggy video. But the upside of that for Kenny G is that a lot more people might be exposed to his music and some of them even pay for it. In a world where only the record label is making any content with his stuff, well, it's at least debatable whether that would work out better for him.
 
But the upside of that for Kenny G is that a lot more people might be exposed to his music and some of them even pay for it

That is such a tired and bogus argument used by copyright thieves: that they are doing the artist a favour by stealing their music. The victim of theft should be the one who decides whether or not they were helped by being robbed.

I'm not necessarily upset "because you are upset that some kid or mom in east bum-f**k isn't properly compensating Kenny G for their doggy video." I am just concerned that artists in general don't get ripped off.

I'm not clear on what you are saying here. Is it that you actually condone copyright theft? Should there not be laws to try to prevent it?
 
That is such a tired and bogus argument used by copyright thieves: that they are doing the artist a favour by stealing their music. The victim of theft should be the one who decides whether or not they were helped by being robbed.

I'm not necessarily upset "because you are upset that some kid or mom in east bum-f**k isn't properly compensating Kenny G for their doggy video." I am just concerned that artists in general don't get ripped off.

I'm not clear on what you are saying here. Is it that you actually condone copyright theft? Should there not be laws to try to prevent it?
I'm not claiming they are "doing the artist a favour." I'm just disputing the conclusion that it's necessarily costing the artist money, or at least as much money as some might claim. I'm tired of certain bogus arguments too, ones that defy all common sense, such as this simple (minded) one that record labels have used for years: x-many illegal downloads equals x-many lost sales. Really? In what world? In the really real world I live in probably a lot of those people, likely most of them, would have simply chosen to do without if their only option was to buy it and they couldn't afford it. That's all I'm saying. That's not me arguing for or against "copyright thieves," just a statement of fact as far as I'm concerned. I just don't want to see bad international laws imposed on us based on that kind of logic.
 
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Interesting summary here pointing out some of the craziness of it all.

Article 13 of the Proposal for a Directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on copyright in the Digital Single Market is proposed piece of EU legislation that's allegedly supposed to ensure better management of copyright in the digital era. The original EU Copyright Directive was first passed in 2001, so there's definitely a need for it to be updated; the tech world moves fast, and the internet is a different beast than it was in the early 2000s. There's currently a perceived problem with regards to how copyrightable material is distributed. Say you have a website that allows for the hosting of possibly copyright infringing material. As it stands, if you upload something to that website and someone complains that their copyright is being infringed, the site's owners are supposed to take it down. If Article 13 passes, the order of that will change: in a post-Article 13 world, when a user uploads content, the service provider checks whether the content is not copyrighted and blocks it if it is. In short, it would force service providers to incorporate copyright-checking software into their sites to ensure that no copyrighted material was ever hosted in the first place.

Sounds reasonable-ish, right? After all, we want to live in a world where people creating content are fairly paid for their services, and piracy can take a big chunk out of that. Surely this would help?

Well, the general thinking is that the juice may very well not be worth the squeeze on this one. For one, consider how the internet constantly remixes media. Say goodbye to /r/PrequelMemes, for example -- hell, say goodbye to most memes. That picture of Ewan McGregor that you've lovingly slapped a caption on is copyrighted material. Parody videos or reaction videos that would currently fall under Fair Use? Good luck getting them past the automated filter. And what about other copyrighted things, like text? It's one thing to upload a novel to the internet... but what about a quote from your favourite book? What about a song lyric? Just how much are you able to post before the filter says no? (You may think this is an exaggeration, but there's actually a much more worrying Article in the bill: Article 11, which allows for a sort of 'link tax', allowing news organisations to claim a fee whenever an aggregator site links to -- or includes a snippet of -- their work. They're already including legislation that puts a financial charge on quoting small sections of text. Let that one sink in.)

There's also the issue of just how effective this software is -- that is to say, far from perfect. It's going to let some stuff pass through that it shouldn't, and it's going to block stuff that should be allowed to pass. Because it's all automated, where's the recourse? In short: there isn't one, or there doesn't have to be. These companies can shrug their shoulders and there's not a lot you can do about that.

But there's more to it than just copyright overreach. Think about Net Neutrality, and how a big concern was that it would prevent startups from getting access to the web marketplace. This new law would do the exact same thing. For example, this new software isn't going to come cheap. Reddit and YouTube and Imgur and Google might be able to afford it... but what about the next big thing? The struggling startup that, say, earns word-of-mouth advertising by putting stickers on lampposts? They're not going to be able to afford this new software, which means they won't legally be allowed to compete in the EU. That's bad for competition, which is bad for the consumer -- and for the marketplace as a whole.

Finally, there's the more insidious idea that comes from this -- that companies might use these new laws to stymie unpopular opinions or political views. Copyright law tends to be the thin end of the wedge. After all, if all of the data is being automatically scanned anyway, what's to stop a major market -- say, China -- implementing a policy that says that any content that references Tiananmen Square must be rejected, or the site can't be accessed from their country? What's to stop the same thing happening in the Middle East? If Twitter prevents tweets containing political dissent to please the governments of the Middle East, you've suddenly got no Arab Spring.

So in short, people aren't happy with it. In fact, six countries from the EU -- Belgium, the Czech Republic, Finland, Hungary, Ireland, and the Netherlands -- raised specific legal questions that included querying if 'the standalone measure/obligation as currently proposed under Article 13 [would] be compatible with the Charter of Human Rights' and asking 'are the proposed measures justified and proportionate?'

As for why it's not being discussed... well, I'd say there are a couple of reasons. Firstly, it's EU-centric, and so it wouldn't directly impact US citizens (although there would definitely be an indirect effect); it's hard to get the US to care about tech law at the best of times, let alone when it's not going to leave a turd on their personal doorstep. Secondly, it's one part of a much larger bill, so it's easy to get put off. Thirdly... well, it's a dense topic, and the issues aren't immediately obvious to people who aren't well-versed in the current situation. Copyright law is famously dense and convoluted, and understanding concepts like 'free use' isn't something that a lot of people run up against on a daily basis.

Article 13 (and Article 11, for that matter) do very little to fix problems that exist, and add a whole raft of new problems on top. The vote on this is on June 20th, so if you feel strongly about it -- and you should -- then it's vital that you put the word out. It won't ruin the internet if it passes... but it will definitely be a much worse place.

Source
 
what it might be like to try (and be stopped) from sharing any kind of media you don't have the permission to share.
This is what I don't get. What's wrong with stopping the sharing of media that you don't have the right to share?

Should people be allowed to share stuff they have no right to?
 
The quote in my post above covers some of the answers to your question. It's not stopping the complete ripping off, copying and sharing bit for bit that people are worried about. It's the vast amounts of creative derivatives, remixes and discussion that could be stifled as a result of the laws which are far more overreaching than they have any need to be.
 
The quote in my post above covers some of the answers to your question. It's not stopping the complete ripping off, copying and sharing bit for bit that people are worried about. It's the vast amounts of creative derivatives, remixes and discussion that could be stifled as a result of the laws which are far more overreaching than they have any need to be.

OK, so it's all agreed then, copyright theft is a bad thing. NB: I'm not in favour of filters that do not work properly either.
 
Well, the first thing Google should now do is pull Google News out of Europe, just as they did with Spain when Spain passed their own link tax bullcrap. Maybe it will get some of the EU Parliament who are in the pockets of big business to think twice before the final vote in April.
 
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