Are usergroups duplicated by default in XF?

[ibrian]

A general query after moving from vb3 to xf is that usergroups seem to be duplicated.

I don't mean that additional usergroups have been imported, but that xenforo seems to be using two separate and distinct sets of usergroups.

On the one hand, there are the familiar usergroups:

1. Unregistered / Unconfirmed
2. Registered
3. Administrative
4. Moderating

However, there appears to be an additional set of usergroups:

1. Moderating
2. Banned

This has caused confusion after importing, not least because:

a) Setting a member up in the moderating usergroup, with relevant permissions, will not apply - unless the explicitly selected with Users > Moderators > Add Moderator

In other words, it looks like a separate usergroup system is running alongside the familiar usergroup one. After all, why have the option to set up a usergroup for "Moderators" with various moderator permissions available, if this will not work without the second "Add Moderator" selection being applied?

b) Additionally, using the spam cleaner, and checking the option"Ban user" so far results in the banned member continuing to display as in the usergroup "Registered" when I use my admin account to edit their backend profile.

It's as if banned members belong both to the familiar "Registered" usergroup, but also an additional - and invisible - "banned" usergroup.

My question is whether I have completely misunderstood the situation? Because at the moment it appears there is a parallel usergroup system running alongside the familiar usergroups, and I don't understand that.


EDIT: Right, just seen that I hadn't set "banned users" to "Add User Group on Ban". My apologies! And I'd delete this thread if I could. However, I still don't understand why the "Moderating" usergroup appears to work distinct to "Add Moderator"?

 

[Walter]

However, there appears to be an additional set of usergroups:

1. Moderating
2. Banned

These arent standard Xenforo usergroups. e.g. Xenforo uses no usergroup for banned members but uses a flag on the user itself and you can safely delete the banned usergroup. These user groups are from importing.
By default, Xenforo has these usergroups: https://xenforo.com/help/user-groups/

 

[Karelke]

a) Setting a member up in the moderating usergroup, with relevant permissions, will not apply - unless the explicitly selected with Users > Moderators > Add Moderator

Same applies for administrators.

However, I still don't understand why the "Moderating" usergroup appears to work distinct to "Add Moderator"?

From a technical point of view, splitting moderator and administrator permissions from the user groups avoids the issue that you would have to set those permissions for every group.

 

[Paul B]

a) Setting a member up in the moderating usergroup, with relevant permissions, will not apply - unless the explicitly selected with Users > Moderators > Add Moderator

In other words, it looks like a separate usergroup system is running alongside the familiar usergroup one. After all, why have the option to set up a usergroup for "Moderators" with various moderator permissions available, if this will not work without the second "Add Moderator" selection being applied?

Explicitly making someone a moderator changes the status of their account.
it is not user group related.
You can make someone a moderator without ever adding them to the Moderating user group.

You can add someone to the Moderating user group without making them a moderator.
All user groups do is apply permissions and styling.

 

[ibrian]

These arent standard Xenforo usergroups. e.g. Xenforo uses no usergroup for banned members but uses a flag on the user itself and you can safely delete the banned usergroup. These user groups are from importing.
By default, Xenforo has these usergroups: https://xenforo.com/help/user-groups/

Indeed - but it's causing an awful lot of confusion among my mods, because there's no obvious indicator on their profile page that banned users are banned. The option to "ban" is reported to come up regardless.

Explicitly making someone a moderator changes the status of their account.
it is not user group related.

But in the Permissions section, it includes permissions for moderating tools - General/Forum Moderator Permissions.

Aren't these simply duplicated when using "Add new moderator" and adding new permissions?

I appreciate I'm still new, and I'm not trying to be awkward - I just genuinely don't understand what "status" does that "usergroups" doesn't already achieve - other than over-complicate things as Moderators cannot moderate properly unless they are Moderating Moderators.

And even some Moderating features will not be allowed unless a specific selection of options secretly unlocks them, rather than outright permissions given: https://xenforo.com/community/threads/how-to-allow-moderating-to-view-moderation-queue.81431/

 

[Paul B]

Making someone a moderator sets a flag on their account, in the database.



Adding them to the Moderating user group or giving them user level permissions doesn't do that.

User groups are just for permissions and styling.
You can give someone moderator permissions via a user group, but it won't change the is_moderator status from 0 to 1.

 

[ibrian]

Wouldn't removing the "status" feature entirely and leaving permissions on a "usergroup" basis simplify things immensely?

 

[Walter]

it's causing an awful lot of confusion among my mods, because there's no obvious indicator on their profile page that banned users are banned.

Why not show the banned users name with a strikethrough? E.g. by

.username .banned
{
    text-decoration: line-through;
}

in username_styles.css? This way everyone sees that this user is banned.

 

[Karelke]

basis simplify things immensely

Certainly not, it would mean you have to set moderator permissions for every user group. That would hardly be manageable.

 

[ibrian]

Certainly not, it would mean you have to set moderator permissions for every user group. That would hardly be manageable.

I don't understand what you mean? As it stands, you have to set permissions for each individual moderator using the "Add Moderator" function, which makes using the "Moderating" usergroup redundant.

Why not show the banned users name with a strikethrough?

That was there by default, but removed - I like to moderate silently.

User groups are just for permissions and styling.

I don't know if it's a quirk of my import, but I have a usergroup "Moderating" where I can set "General/Forum Moderator Permissions".

That should be enough - but I also have to "Add Moderator" and then set individual permissions for each promoted Moderator - even though these are the exact same permissions as in the "Moderating" usergroup.

In other words, so far as I see it, xenforo treats the entire Moderating usergroup permissions as redundant.

Or did the feature "General/Forum Moderator Permissions" for that usergroup import?

 

[Paul B]

Any user or user group can be granted moderator permissions.

 

[ibrian]

But that's exactly what I mean, Brogan - you have both the "Status" and "Usergroup" permissions running in parallel, when surely there's no user need for the "Status" setting at all?

All it's doing is duplicating the permissions system and making everything more complicated than it needs to?

Usergroups alone mean you can have:

Registered
Moderating

But with "Status" as well, you end up with:

Registered
Moderating -Moderating
Registered +Moderating
Moderating +Moderating

Isn't the point of Usergroups to cover this base?

I'm not trying to argue the point - I'm simply trying to explain, as feedback from someone newly imported, that the entire "Status" issue seems to unnecessarily complicate the set up.

Additionally, IMO the ability to see the Moderation Queue and Reported Items in the moderator bar should be available as direct permission options, rather than something set up indirectly as a result of a combination of permissions.

xenforo is a great system - my registered users love it - but my moderators and I have been left stumbling over permission issues mentioned above.

As above, simply feedback.

 

[Karelke]

which makes using the "Moderating" usergroup redundant.

We use the group 'Moderating' to make crew forums visible for our moderators. In addition, we use this group to set a user title for all moderators, and to give their names a different color. How would you do this without an additional user group?