Any UK/EU registered companies here?

[Robust]

Just wondering, other than XenForo, M2N Limited and myself, anyone else registered in the UK/EU? Do you all charge VAT on your products? Do you display exc. VAT or inc. VAT?

 

[Teapot]

I'm UK registered, I do charge VAT (although I sell B2B, so the rules are a bit different), and all my invoices include VAT as a separate item If I sold to the public, all my prices would be VAT inclusive as I'd expect all consumer prices to be expressed that way.

 

[Robust]

I'm UK registered, I do charge VAT (although I sell B2B, so the rules are a bit different), and all my invoices include VAT as a separate item If I sold to the public, all my prices would be VAT inclusive as I'd expect all consumer prices to be expressed that way.

What if you also sold internationally? Would you not just show an exc price and say VAT at local rates will be added?

 

[Mr Lucky]

I have two companies, one is UK VAT registered. I don't do much online trading, but I do occasional sales and adversie including for EU with different price excluding for outside EU

My other company is non-profit (fundraising for charity) and is registered for selling digital services to EU (VAT MOSS) but under UK threshold.

On my Wordpress ecommerce site I advertise ex VAT prices, but with a note that EU customers for digital downloads will pay pay VAT (at their country rate)

For my xenforo site this is not easily possible so i just advertise a rate for user upgrades and I swallow the VAT on EU (non-UK) subscribers.

 

[bebosny]

I have a Belgian registered company. My main activities are for local companies but I do have a XenForo forum which complies with all EU MOSS regulations. I always add the VAT to the main price.

Checkout looks something like this:

Spoiler

Tax is decided and added by PayPal:

Spoiler

And last but not least, I use https://quaderno.io/ to collect all payment data (country/billing address, name and IP as stated in the MOSS regulations) if I ever need to pull anything up.

 

[Mr Lucky]

I forgit to mention, on my Wordpress site I use Taxamo via their plugin to calculate and monitor the VAT MOSS

Xenforo is a bit more of a problem, I have customised the PayPal template to make sure PP collects addresses

 

[Teapot]

What if you also sold internationally? Would you not just show an exc price and say VAT at local rates will be added?

I would do that if I sold internationally, yes.

 

[bebosny]

I forgit to mention, on my Wordpress site I use Taxamo via their plugin to calculate and monitor the VAT MOSS

Xenforo is a bit more of a problem, I have customised the PayPal template to make sure PP collects addresses

Does it only collect that?

You need 2 pieces of "evidence" for the MOSS. For example, I use the PayPal shipping address they have filed and the IP address they use on my website. They both need to match the same country. The tax of that country will be applied.

 

[Mr Lucky]

Does it only collect that?

You need 2 pieces of "evidence" for the MOSS. For example, I use the PayPal shipping address they have filed and the IP address they use on my website. They both need to match the same country. The tax of that country will be applied.

Yes, I use the paypal address and hopefully the IP collected by xenforo. However I think xenforo only keeps IPs for 12 months - I may be wrong about that though.

I'm just hoping if there is an audit they will be easy on me seeing as how I'm doing my best given the difficulty with the software (xenforo). I had a VAT audit last year, but that was for my production company which has no VAT MOSS sales.

I'm just hoping they leave the small fish alone, or that someone develops a Taxamo addon.

 

[bebosny]

Yes, I use the paypal address and hopefully the IP collected by xenforo. However I think xenforo only keeps IPs for 12 months - I may be wrong about that though.

I'm just hoping if there is an audit they will be easy on me seeing as how I'm doing my best given the difficulty with the software (xenforo). I had a VAT audit last year, but that was for my production company which has no VAT MOSS sales.

I'm just hoping they leave the small fish alone, or that someone develops a Taxamo addon.

Go to (yourboard)/admin.php?options/list/logging
And you'll see this:

Spoiler

Just uncheck the box and they'll never be removed.

 

[Robust]

You need 2 pieces of "evidence" for the MOSS. For example, I use the PayPal shipping address they have filed and the IP address they use on my website. They both need to match the same country. The tax of that country will be applied.

Are you sure? Having 2 sounds silly, especially because you don't know the PayPal shipping address until after payment has been made, so if there is no match the transaction already happened, for instant delivery services it's too late to cancel and refund the order, because it's already been sent. Link to EU asking for 2 sets of evidence? What if the two don't match?

 

[bebosny]

Are you sure? Having 2 sounds silly, especially because you don't know the PayPal shipping address until after payment has been made, so if there is no match the transaction already happened, for instant delivery services it's too late to cancel and refund the order, because it's already been sent. Link to EU asking for 2 sets of evidence? What if the two don't match?

Yeah. I'm 100% sure. If you charged 20% uk tax for example, you need to be able to provide 2 pieces of non-conflicting evidence as proof that the actual customer is from the UK. Also, they don't really care that it's very difficult to do. You just need to deal with it. For me, it usually matches (the IP and PayPal shipping address). If it doesn't, I take a look and check the visitors IP.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...etermining-the-place-of-supply-and-taxation-1

Under "Circumstances where the presumptions don’t apply"

Where the digital services are supplied other than in the circumstances listed above, the business making the supply must obtain and keep 2 pieces of non-contradictory information to support and evidence the member state where the customer is normally located.

 

[Mr Lucky]

What if the two don't match?

You go to jail.

I have no idea how they actually will verify any of this evidence. Are they going to login to your forum to see the IP addresses, no.

What if you export the log for them, is there any reason to believe you didn't edit the log? no.

 

[bebosny]

You go to jail.

I have no idea how they actually will verify any of this evidence. Are they going to login to your forum to see the IP addresses, no.

What if you export the log for them, is there any reason to believe you didn't edit the log? no.

This is quite a new thing. I don't think anyone had a audit yet. Not in Belgium at least. I don't think they will go extremely hardcore on the small companies. You can always call them up and ask yourself. Here in Belgium they have a separate department for it.

 

[Mr Lucky]

You can always call them up and ask yourself.

I did. The person answering the phone just said "your software must record the evidence" They really don't (and cannot) know what is meant by the legislation.

I think something like Taxamo will be acceptable, and addresses record in you paypal statements, but xenforo database?? I doubt it.

 

[Robust]

Yeah. I'm 100% sure. If you charged 20% uk tax for example, you need to be able to provide 2 pieces of non-conflicting evidence as proof that the actual customer is from the UK. Also, they don't really care that it's very difficult to do. You just need to deal with it. For me, it usually matches (the IP and PayPal shipping address). If it doesn't, I take a look and check the visitors IP.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...etermining-the-place-of-supply-and-taxation-1

Under "Circumstances where the presumptions don’t apply"

Welp, I guess I'll be adding that into my invoicing system. Easy for me because I can just check if the country code and the IP geo code matches before purchase.

 

[Robust]

I did. The person answering the phone just said "your software must record the evidence" They really don't (and cannot) know what is meant by the legislation.

I think something like Taxamo will be acceptable, and addresses record in you paypal statements, but xenforo database?? I doubt it.

Well, it's too late if the PayPal address didn't match the Taxamo thing. Purchase already happened.

There's G2A which is VAT registered and they let you choose country (so everyone chooses US to not pay VAT), they have millions in turnover I'd guess and they get away with it fine.

 

[Mr Lucky]

Well, the law was flawed to begin with, so can we expect the implementation to be any less so?

The ad news for us in the Uk is when we brexit, there may be no more MOSS, we just have to register in every country, or in one country (e.g. Ireland) and use their MOSS scheme.

 

[bebosny]

Now I remember again. @Mr Lucky @Robust
The evidence may NOT be modifiable on your end. So your own XenForo database or something like that wouldn't work.

I use Quaderno as help but all my evidence is stored in the "custom" html variable on PayPal's end. See screenshow below.
Above in the seller protection is the payers address. Below in the custom value is his IP address.

Spoiler

Honestly, when I heard about this system I thought it was a pain. I really did. But once you implement it, it's very easy to file your taxes.

Not having this system is not dangerous or anything. But not paying ANY taxes is fishy and will definitely ring some bells afaik. (which is almost always the case if you have these online services as your primary source of income and don't use the MOSS)

 

[bebosny]

Well, the law was flawed to begin with, so can we expect the implementation to be any less so?

The ad news for us in the Uk is when we brexit, there may be no more MOSS, we just have to register in every country, or in one country (e.g. Ireland) and use their MOSS scheme.

MOSS Applies to countries outside the EU too. A US company technically still has to comply with the MOSS regulations.