native wiki

dvsDave

Well-known member
The biggest blank spot in both VB and IPB is their lack of a native wiki product.

I want a wiki product with multiple namespaces and autolinking of terms from the the forums to the wiki entry. I also want to be able to see a list of terms in the wiki displayed like the memberlist on vb. (characters listed in a row across the top)

You provide that and an import from vbulletin and I'll move in a heartbeat.
 
Upvote 43
Keep an eye out for Vaultwiki...
Thank you Dave for reminding me of this. Yes--by all accounts, Xenforo-VaultWiki is going to be the Volvo of the Xenforo-Wiki world. Reliable.

However--to clarify what I was trying to say above--I would also like for Jaxel's XenCarta to become the Ferrari of the Xenforo-Wiki world.

If I were running Xenforo, I would be contacting Jaxel and working on an agreement that gave Jaxel and his clients full assurance that XenCarta would be fully promoted and supported. Xenforo the most advanced forum, also having the most high-performance wiki. Together they could help assure mutual success. Jaxel is an innovative programmer. Xenforo may be missing an opportunity if they fail to encourage him.

Thanks to this discussion started by DvsDave, I have learned of the strength of a forum-wiki combination. Because of this, instead of only one Xenforo site, I hope someday to have 3 Xenforo sites.

While waiting for an XF-VaultWiki or a fully-supported XenCarta, I will focus on building several non-XF Wordpress sites. Since Wordpress is free, Wordpress-MediaWiki sites do not need to be budgeted. I can build any number at any time. However I must use MediaWiki for all non-XF sites because based in my research, there seems no better wiki possibility for Wordpress.
 
No need for this. If it´s relevant, users can write on the "real" wiki.

You would be astonished how many sites nowadays use a Wiki. Maybe you should google it?

I find it fascinating how many oppose a feature without real arguments only because they don't need it and they can't imagine others have a use for it.
 
That can also apply the other way though.

There are some who can't understand why niche features shouldn't be made part of the core, despite only a very small percentage of users wanting it.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that is the case here, just making an observation.
 
My argument is that if something is very interresting, it should be placed in the wiki of the www. That way everyone can benefit from it. Yes, wikipedia have restrictions, but that also ensures some sort of quality. I can very well understand the desire to run a wiki on site, and by all means, go right ahead.

But why spend time on developing a wiki sw when wordpress is around? A bridge? Yes. A plug-in? Yes. Standard feature? No.
 
My argument is that if something is very interresting, it should be placed in the wiki of the www. That way everyone can benefit from it.

But that is the point: I do not want everyone to benefit it through wikipedia.com: I want to give my own site more value for members (and advertisers!) by provide high quality content. I bought my own domain and websoftware for a reason. I also want/need to make a living out of it, so by all means...

But why spend time on developing a wiki sw when wordpress is around? A bridge? Yes. A plug-in? Yes. Standard feature? No.

Wordpress is not a wiki system. Second: A bridge is a huge no-go, as we've already provided the arguments for in this thread. It has got to be integrated in/make us of the (outstanding/easy to use) UI/UX of Xenforo itself, being it as a third-party plug in or a default feature.
 
That can also apply the other way though.

There are some who can't understand why niche features shouldn't be made part of the core, despite only a very small percentage of users wanting it.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that is the case here, just making an observation.

Having waded through this thread, you echoed my one feeling: it is likely a minority of users who actually want wiki integration, or even want a wiki for their site. The group of sites I'm working on will revolve around one of them being a wiki, in fact, so there is no need to sell me on the idea of a wiki. But, out of all the sites out there that have discussion boards, how many actually really use (or even want) a wiki? My guess is that there are very few.

I see it like this: there are likely a lot of current XF licensees who want nothing more than a discussion board system. And probably a lot of those users don't even register and/or contribute to the forum. The ones that do, often do it because they've run into a problem and need help.

We ran into the same thing at vB: a lot of us who ran big boards were practically begging vB to work on support for big boards--adding native Sphinx support, offering support for alternative database systems (like PostgreSQL), you name it, we begged for it. And in the middle of this, someone mentioned: why should vB spend so much time on something that so few customers have a need for? Sure just about everyone complained about it, but...you knew that there was some truth to that. If we had our kindly XF developers dumping all of their efforts into a blog, a wiki, an auction site, or whatever other major functions we all ask for...what would become of the forum?

Down the road, if XF basically slayed the competition and were rolling in cash, then yes, bringing on more developers to develop new products might make sense. But for now, it would dilute the core of what XF is working on: basic forum software. They're doing one thing, and doing it well. Same way Wordpress has stuck to blogging--look at how their own attempt at forum software went. (Not a failure, but not really on anyone's radar either.)

What's the answer, though? I don't have one. A couple of ideas run through my head, such as the developers working with other major products to develop a standard of interoperability (IOW, same type of user management and login system), and defining common parameters for bridging the systems together. Another (more sane ;) ) is that if an add-on developer feels strongly enough about creating good, solid add-on products, then start developing them and start charging for them. I feel there likely is room for a good developer who can make a living from providing quality plugins and addons (and support for their products) for XF.

Much as I'd like to see a complete turn-key site solution from XF, I know it won't happen any time soon, if at all. Sure, I'd love a CMS and wiki with the XF team behind it, but it's not feasible for them, and spreading themselves too thin for what amount to niche products just hurts all of us in the end.
 
Errrrr.... probably my fault but.... I think you are all missing my point... I agree that XF cannot spread itself thin to work on a wiki... So I say, when someone like JAXEL appears, then XF can have such "native" enhancements for almost free. All that XF needs to do is:
  1. Post certain guidelines for a "priority status" third-party add-on.
  2. One of these rules can be that any "priority status" add-on must maintain 3 supporting programmers. I.e., XF must have assurance that support for this add-on will not likely vanish.
  3. Another rule can simply be that XF must decide at their leisure they like the add-on and that the programming is well done.
  4. If priority status is achieved, then this add-on will be officially listed in a very visible place wherever XF promotes Xenforo itself. Also perhaps in the admin panel, etc.
  5. So XF can actively approach promising programmers like JAXEL, and tell him, "if" you do so-and-so, then you will have priority status... or JAXEL can likewise approach XF and ask, "Is XenCarta eligible for priority status? If so what more do you want me to do?"
  6. I.e., people like JAXEL can be assured ahead of time, "if" you do such-and-such extra effort, then your add-on is likely to get priority status, thus assuring you of a lucrative situation.
  7. Eventual result: numerous powerful and reliable XF add-ons... With almost-zero XF resources expended.
(As for the value of a wiki in particular, I am not qualified in debating this subject. But Xenforo itself might use a wiki for XF documentation, similar to the Wordpress.org Codex. Does this spread resources thin? No, more like having a hundred slaves to do your documentation for free.)
 
I work alone...
Yes I thought so. I admit that I know nothing about programming or the business of programming. My suggestion of requiring 3 programmers per project is perhaps not feasible. I don't know. I am merely using this "idea" as an example to say that perhaps Xenforo can set up whatever standards they deem appropriate for a "priority status." And also of course, keep an open ear toward any suggestions that you (Jaxel) might have in adjusting such standards.

Then, from my perspective, Xenforo administration in granting priority status assures me, "we have arrived at an understanding that assures the continuity of this add-on..." Then I would take their word for it. I would subscribe to the add-on in full confidence.

Otherwise--no matter how excellent an add-on might be--as a site developer, I tend to agree with Josh and Mr. Björkman that I might as well go with VaultWiki or even a non-integrated WikiMedia. However flawed that solution might be, it will be sufficient. Continuity of support is of basic importance.

P.S...
My argument is that if something is very interresting, it should be placed in the wiki of the www... Yes, wikipedia have restrictions, but that also ensures some sort of quality...
Well the idea that "everything of value can be posted in Wikipedia.org..." is certainly not valid. For one thing, Wikipedia.org only allows regurgitating other sources--original findings or analyses are not allowed. More to the point, a local wiki enhances member interest, in innumerable different ways, as discussed earlier in this thread. I suspect that Mr. Björkman and perhaps most people have the misconception that a wiki is limited to an encyclopedia.
Wordpress is not a wiki system... A bridge is a huge no-go, as we've already provided the arguments for in this thread. It has got to be integrated in/make us of the (outstanding/easy to use) UI/UX of Xenforo itself, being it as a third-party plug in or a default feature.
Well I would just like to point out that there is a Xenforo-Wordpress bridge, and that Wordpress integrates readily with MediaWiki, and that Wordpress.org seems committed to supporting this integration for its own official "Codex." Therefore, Mr. Björkman is partly correct, in that if anyone wants an XF+WP+MediaWiki community, this is already available and fully reliable.

Incidentally, there are also several "native" wiki plug-ins for Wordpress/Buddypress. But, as implied here by Josh111, these start with enthusiasm and then peter out, leaving webmasters with a mass of un-migratable data. The "BP-Wiki" was much-lauded but became unusable after Wordpress 3.0. The lone programmer then began a 3.0 update but was halted midstream, running low on spare time, and also seeing a new Wiki add-on diluting the interest. Currently his clients are waiting for this new Wiki to be completed--and which I suspect is likely to repeat the same cycle all over again. Therefore, for a Wordpress-Wiki combination, I have decided to follow the path of Wordpress.org and go for MediaWiki integration.

The reliable Wordpress plug-ins tend to be (a) group efforts or (b) offically supported by Wordpress.org. Two examples of quasi-official WP plug-ins are the BBpress forum and the Buddypress Facebook-style networking. These are not full-featured but are functional and reliable. Meanwhile MediaWiki is, of course, not a plug-in but an extremely well-established platform in its own right. Also, blogging and Facebook-style networking have somewhat eclipsed the more old-fashioned concept of "forums." Wordpress 3.0 also enables a multi-layered "reply to comment" system that combines forum-style discussion with blogs. Therefore, I expect to build several substantial communities without even using Xenforo.

To keep up with the trend away from forums and toward blogging, Vbulletin made the Vblogger. In my view, this was a mistake. Wordpress has so much popular inertia (not to mention corporate sponsorship, and quality, and flexibility and being free) that it seems impossible and pointless to compete with Wordpress. Far better is simply (a) be sure to maintain a top-notch bridge for Wordpress, and (b) also develop a "priority status" system to reward and encourage major third-party Xenforo add-ons, and (c) in doing so, help to reassure Xenforo clients that these add-ons can be relied on. Thus, almost risk-free and cost-free, Xenforo might assure itself and its clients of always riding the crest of whatever popular direction is taken by social media.

(Xenforo also might require users to pay something like $3-$10/year for certain premium add-ons, depending on the complexity, of which Xenforo receives perhaps $1/year commissions. And so the cost is kept low and yet both XF and the premium add-ons receive substantial extra income.)
 
Will be back to get Xenforo + Wiki discussion going soon.
I did stumble upon this young project that I though you wiki fans might be interested in.

http://www.wikidforum.com/

Turn useful threads into wiki articles with the click of a button

WikidForum is a PHP based free forum software platform that allows your visitors to turn useful threads into wiki articles. The initial beta Community Edition of WikidForum is offered under the Open Source License Version 3.

Hmmm .... I thought I would love this software. But it really misses the mark ? As opposed to having the interactivity of a forum and the robust documentation nature of a wiki .... this seems to be neither !

Being able to see the active users while reading a specific thread is quirky. link.
The "Home Page" for the wiki (articles) is very poorly designed. link
The best part of their site (the Home Page, etc) has nothing to do with their software.
 
native wiki is a great idea :)
Unfortunately, forum based online communities have never seen a good wiki.
With this in mind, a native wiki could be quite low on Xenforo's list of Native Addons.
People will say ... "I'm not moving to Xenforo unless they get a native Gallery".
There is a much smaller group interested in wikis .... for good reason ... All wikis, especially forum based ones ... suck !. XenCarta is solid Wiki Lite. A good permission system ... a sprinkle of forum integration and XenCarta will be a force. Check out XenCarta and give some feedback to Jaxel. XenCarta, albeit poorly advertised, has alot of cool features already !
 
It is too complicated for normal users. Not for us, but when you ever have watched a John Doe trying to make a new page... (n)
 
Pages in MW aren't supposed to have a hierarchical order. If you want hierarchical order, then you need a CMS.
In the purest sense of the definition of a wiki, this is true.
However, in practicality, people's content / documents often have a hierarchical structure ... and easily tapping in to some structure can be helpful.
I think many people who use the current Lite wiki like the structure.
 
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