California Case Update

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Digital Doctor said:
Writing spaghetti code by trying to change vBulletin 3 into 4 is time consuming.
Apparently writing a whole new forum is easier !
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To put it another way: vB evolved over the course of 10 years. It was not developed in 10 years. Quite a difference. Kier, Mike and crew could probably write a new blog system to replace Wordpress over the course of a year as well, including ample time for a few barbecues and a three-week vacation. I know from my own coding experience (which is a far cry from what this crew is capable of): a lot of times, you can save time by starting from scratch and writing something new, rather than adapting something that already exists. You can even think of it like a term paper for college: you could purchase a finished essay and change it around so it looks unique, but it could take more time modifying the existing paper than creating it on your own in the first place. Plus, there is the fact that a framework was used; the coders had to spend less time reinventing the wheel.

Incidentally, I have been distilling a lot of this lawsuit information for my moderators and admins. I did have one comment about the lawsuit that may apply here as well. IB suing xF for creating a new forum system is like Ford suing General Motors because they build cars. They are functionally equivalent, and have many of the same features. But that doesn't mean GM stole all of Ford's mechanical designs to create their products, or that they would even have to. They have engineers who can design functions with similar appearance and function (it's a car, it drives on a road, it has headlights, leather seats, etc.) without having to borrow or steal Ford's designs directly. To my eyes, IB and xF are no different--many similarities, but completely different design. Oh, and isn't this called "competition?"

IB only needs to look around the whole internet community to see the damage they have already caused themselves. Dragging this out will just drive more current customers to other forum systems. Nobody likes a bully.
 
Chris said:
With regard to the relevance of Floris' blog and this case....

I'm just guessing.....

...but I think what I.B. are trying to use it for, is mainly for the purpose of attempting to establish a time-line on XF. I doubt the comments themselves, other than the date they were made are very relevant to the case.

-Chris
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That's what the whole point of using Floris' blog was...

CTO Rosenblum called the post an Announcement.

Semantic markup is listed as on-page optimisation, this is one of things he alleges as being copied.
 
Rudy said:
<snip> I did have one comment about the lawsuit that may apply here as well. IB suing xF for creating a new forum system is like Ford suing General Motors because they build cars. They are functionally equivalent, and have many of the same features. <snip>
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Hate to interrupt, but this is more like one of Ford's engineers who designed the Mustang going to GM to create the Corvette. It's not just a product, it's the intellectual property.
At least this is what IB is claiming somewhere in those documents.
 
Peggy said:
I know you do dear. You both posted about the same time so wasn't sure you saw his. :)
Yes this is what's being done to Kier, and Mike, but not by Ray.
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Apologies for the bluntness earlier Peggy.

GeeksKickAss said:
True, and I understand, but xF is a business - a commercial enterprise - and we need to keep that in mind.

I'm sure many of Kier, Mike, and Ashley's friends/supporters/customers would be absolutely gutted if xF lost a case based on something the IB team presented that was said in support of xF, but without the xF team's permission or approval.

Good intentions and wishes of support are one thing - plotting to damage, hinder, or negatively impact on IB, it's employees, or former employees is quite another.

I feel strongly about xF - it's really, really, impressed me - and I want it to succeed, but I equally don't want to inadvertantly do them any harm.

There are people hereabouts who are much, much cleverer than me - and if those people can read the public documents and point out floors that might work in xF's favour, then great - go ahead and point them out and discuss them - it may have a positive effect and even give xF some additional points to consider. That's a positive thing and shouldn't harm xF in any way.

Anyway, I'm going on and pulling things off-topic so I'll finish up and wish the xF team all the best for hopefully having the CA case dismissed.

Cheers,
Shaun :D
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:thumbsup:
 
This whole litigation just keeps on becoming one big mess with every passing day.
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Just wanted to drop by and let Kier, Mike and Ashley know that this has by no means dampened our support for you guys and the brilliant work you have done. Keep your chins high, give it your best and hope for it all to turn out well. It's the best that anyone can do. :)

Good luck!
 
steven s said:
Hate to interrupt, but this is more like one of Ford's engineers who designed the Mustang going to GM to create the Corvette. It's not just a product, it's the intellectual property.
At least this is what IB is claiming somewhere in those documents.
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The point is though, it happens all the time. Designers move jobs and take their ideas and concepts with them. It does seem that IB are using a shotgun approach though to the case. They're not really pinning XF down on any one issue, rather trying to cover everything. Problem is the key issue is probably their accusation of code-reuse & copying, but this simply isn't the case and is clear as daylight to any experience PHP developer. I don't doubt it wouldn't be hard for the defence to get an independent body to confirm this is the case if needs be.

The issue of ideas being incorporated is perhaps greyer and I really don't know what the situation is here. As I've stated before, ideas can't be copyrighted (at least in the UK) so other than trying to angle them as being 'property' of IB, then that's the grey area.

i.e. the Idea of a Heated windscreen in a car isn't copyrighted or patented, but the implementation of it is (by Ford). So if you can come up with a different method of a heated windscreen that doesn't impinge on Ford's patent then its fine. But we're not talking patents here.

As for arguing the Kier worked out of California, he was over there for a couple of days for a meeting - would that class as 'working out of'? Would be interesting to see if there was a legal definition for it! as far as I can tell, he was employed by a UK company, attending meetings at that company's parent company's offices in California. He wasn't working out of California as Jelsoft was still UK based.

The problem is unless anyone has a legal opinion (i.e. they're in the legal trade), all of what anyone says is conjecture anyway, including all of the above.
 
steven s said:
Hate to interrupt, but this is more like one of Ford's engineers who designed the Mustang going to GM to create the Corvette. It's not just a product, it's the intellectual property.
At least this is what IB is claiming somewhere in those documents.
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And in the automotive business, the way VPs and designers move around, ideas are constantly *ahem* borrowed between companies. In fact, that was one of my recent complaints about GM's styling when Robert Lutz moved over from Chrysler: GM's styling got bland, and a lot of Chrysler "clones" came along. The Chevy Cobalt was going after the Dodge Neon "cute" look. The new Impala was a near clone of a Dodge Intrepid. The Chevy HHR was even a to the PT Cruiser. I could go on.

BUT...did you see Chrysler suing GM for the rash of "me, too" vehicles? No, I didn't either. ;)
 
Kier said:
Ray was only ever doing what he was told to do. Why do you think things haven't changed since he left?
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That's true. But if someone told me to do something unethical. I WOULDN'T do it.

If you're my customers and my boss said, RIP off Kier and etc.. I WOULDN'T. Not because it's you, but because I CARE about customers and I wouldn't want to do something unethical.

He could've easily said NO and walked away.
 
FreshFroot said:
That's true. But if someone told me to do something unethical. I WOULDN'T do it.

If you're my customers and my boss said, RIP off Kier and etc.. I WOULDN'T. Not because it's you, but because I CARE about customers and I wouldn't want to do something unethical.

He could've easily said NO and walked away.
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That's certainly an admirable position to take but hardly the reality in most large corporations...whether they are American owned or not.
 
John said:
That's certainly an admirable position to take but hardly the reality in most large corporations...whether they are American owned or not.
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That's bogus. People just don't do anything about it, because they WANT to leave or be on good terms with the current company. I've seen what life is like for whistle blowers. I admire that they had the guts to be able to do the RIGHT thing. But sure it costed them a lot in the long run.
 
FreshFroot said:
nope, but we don't know the story there. No one knows if he left because he felt so, or if the company saw his position as a failure and wanted him out
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That's true. But we do know he no longer works there. Why speculate any further?
Big business becomes a big business not because they are ethical.
My opinion, the difference between big businesses that appear ethical and those who don't, is this size of their PR department.
 
You seem to misunderstand my point...it is more common than you think at all kinds of levels of degree in the business world so getting all in a huff over what Ray did or didn't do or should have done is sort of a waste of time...especially considering the corporate environment that is IB and anyone working for them should be plainly aware of.
 
Let's be realistic here...it would be very hard for anyone to pass up the kind of salary he must have been making while working for IB, even if you didn't agree with the company's practices. It's human nature to look out for one's self. It's not wise to quit one's job until you have something else lined up and a backup plan. Few people here know Ray and he very well might have had a great vision for vB in which he was not allowed to act on. I don't know and most of you don't know.

On an unrelated note, I'm watching the Penguins vs Capitals game right now...go Caps! :D
 
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