ZEND and PHP

[gmaister22]

Hello there,

i'm planning on creating a new forum, i really love xenforo, that's why i have a license of course!

But, with all that IPS 4 developing, IPB is tempting, but that's the main point of this thread.


I'm interested in knowing if xenForo is planning on updating ZEND (zend's latest version is 2.2.5 already right now) where as xenForo is pretty back behind...

Also if they you guys are going to upgrade the PHP to 5.3 as a minimum spec as it has already been the new adapted standard...

 

[Jeremy]

Zend 2.0 is a drastic change from the Zend 1.x that is currently in use within XenForo. Zend 2.0 uses Namespaces, which is only supported by PHP 5.3 or later, and XenForo targets 5.2+. According to usage statistics I've found online, PHP 5.2 is still widely used.

The changes you seek wouldn't be suitable for a 1.x release as they would require substantial fundamental changes to the product.

 

[gmaister22]

Zend 2.0 is a drastic change from the Zend 1.x that is currently in use within XenForo. Zend 2.0 uses Namespaces, which is only supported by PHP 5.3 or later, and XenForo targets 5.2+. According to usage statistics I've found online, PHP 5.2 is still widely used.

The changes you seek wouldn't be suitable for a 1.x release as they would require substantial fundamental changes to the product.

First of all, 5.2 reached EOL 3 years ago.

As life goes on, things progress so should people, business etc...you want to be outdated, updated or ahead of others?

There will always be people using old stuff...you can't go on, innovate and progress by that in mind, even when 5.5 and 5.6 comes out there will be people still using 5.3 etc...so? Should the company not update and go on because some of their users use older versions which can easily upgrade and be compatible with the latest software?

 

[Brent W]

First of all, 5.2 reached EOL 3 years ago.

As life goes on, things progress so should people, business etc...you want to be outdated, updated or ahead of others?

There will always be people using old stuff...you can't go on, innovate and progress by that in mind, even when 5.5 and 5.6 comes out there will be people still using 5.3 etc...so? Should the company not update and go on because some of their users use older versions which can easily upgrade and be compatible with the latest software?

This may shed some light on their thinking going forward: http://xenforo.com/community/thread...rk-stay-in-the-xenforo-build.3003/#post-44220

 

[Jeremy]

First of all, 5.2 reached EOL 3 years ago.

As life goes on, things progress so should people, business etc...you want to be outdated, updated or ahead of others?

There will always be people using old stuff...you can't go on, innovate and progress by that in mind, even when 5.5 and 5.6 comes out there will be people still using 5.3 etc...so? Should the company not update and go on because some of their users use older versions which can easily upgrade and be compatible with the latest software?

Not everyone can upgrade their PHP instance as easy as most people would like to believe. Many shared hosts still use 5.2 and are very slow to update.

The latest statistics I am looking at show ~82% of the internet is on PHP. Roughly a third of those users still use 5.2. A business can innovate within its means, but for a business that is reliant on having a large market, cutting out a third of potential customers seems very impractical. EOL or not, it is still widely used.

 

[gmaister22]

Not everyone can upgrade their PHP instance as easy as most people would like to believe. Many shared hosts still use 5.2 and are very slow to update.

The latest statistics I am looking at show ~82% of the internet is on PHP. Roughly a third of those users still use 5.2. A business can innovate within its means, but for a business that is reliant on having a large market, cutting out a third of potential customers seems very impractical. EOL or not, it is still widely used.

Firstly cutting out a third of the customers is very hypothetical and its an assumption that you make, you don't really know how much of that percentage will upgrade...also you don't know how many people might not buy xenforo because its not updated as some x or y software. And i know a few already. Any real developer will tell you its foolish to remain on outdated software for various reasons and as i said, because some don't upgrade what they should, doesnt mean that a company should be held back and wait for them....there will always be people on outdated stuff, you have to set a limit, we are talking about EOL stuff now


According to you, things should never get upgraded because there will always be people using outdated version. Good job.

Microsoft shouldn't release new Windows because 1/3 have a PC that was built before 10 years according to statistics...
Is that the correct way of thinking?

You have to progress, so people will follow up

 

[Brent W]

Firstly cutting out a third of the customers is very hypothetical and its an assumption that you make, you don't really know how much of that percentage will upgrade...also you don't know how many people might not buy xenforo because its not updated as some x or y software. And i know a few already. Any real developer will tell you its foolish to remain on outdated software for various reasons and as i said, because some don't upgrade what they should, doesnt mean that a company should be held back and wait for them....there will always be people on outdated stuff, you have to set a limit, we are talking about EOL stuff now


According to you, things should never get upgraded because there will always be people using outdated version. Good job.

Microsoft shouldn't release new Windows because 1/3 have a PC that was built before 10 years according to statistics...
Is that the correct way of thinking?

You have to progress, so people will follow up

You are acting like Zend Framework is stone age code and that @Kier and @Mike are unable to make a decision about whether or not it a drastic rewrite is worth it right now.

 

[Jeremy]

That is not at all what I said. A third of PHP sites are still on PHP 5.2. That number will diminish over time. Its the natural progression of sites upgrading, being taken down, etc.

Web Hosts should be the ones upgrading the servers and actively supporting the new versions.

I also didn't state we should stay on out dated software, and as a professional developer I never will. I upgrade to versions when necessary and appropriate. Targeting an older version isn't necessarily a bad idea and when it comes to trying to run a successful business, alienating roughly a third of your potential customers so that it can be "bleeding edge" isn't going to be the best decision.

What makes you not want to purchase XenForo because it can run on PHP 5.2? It runs fine on PHP 5.3, 5.4, and 5.5. I'm sure it'll run fine on 5.6. As far as I can tell, IPB 4.0 just ups it to 5.3 since it decided to use namespaces. What benefit does it really provide to the code structure?

IPSMember::isInGroup(1,4);

// is now

IPS/Member::load(1)->isInGroup(4)

That structure of classes exists within XenForo as it stands, without namespaces.

I have yet to see a valid reason to not target such a large base of potential customers.

 

[gmaister22]

You are acting like Zend Framework is stone age code and that @Kier and @Mike are unable to make a decision about whether or not it a drastic rewrite is worth it right now.

Comparing version 1 and version 2.2.5 that is the current version on Zend, there are really big improvements and upgrades, check the logs.

As for PHP 5.3 compared to 5.2 EOL, namespacing alone is well worth it, so is the improved spl_autoload

 

[tyteen4a03]

Comparing version 1 and version 2.2.5 that is the current version on Zend, there are really big improvements and upgrades, check the logs.

As for PHP 5.3 compared to 5.2 EOL, namespacing alone is well worth it, so is the improved spl_autoload

ZF1 is still being maintained. I don't see why the requirements need to be raised in the XenForo 1.x series - if XF becomes dependent on ZF2 frameworks and follow its conventions, all classes need to be renamed and restructured - not a small project.

I see a requirements raise suitable for 2.0 (X.x.x indicates platform change or big rewrite), but not any version before. Sudden change of requirements in the next version will only throw off developers as all existing addon codes will cease to work, and developers will have to adhere to the new conventions.

Do note when IPB4 was announced in May 2012, XenForo was still facing the IB lawsuit. Had IB not sued XenForo, it would be much more than you see here today. You can choose to believe in the future of XenForo, or believe in the future of IPB (simply because they have more to show at this stage). The choice is yours.

According to you, things should never get upgraded because there will always be people using outdated version. Good job.

Microsoft shouldn't release new Windows because 1/3 have a PC that was built before 10 years according to statistics...
Is that the correct way of thinking?

Did they stop supporting Windows XP just because Vista/7/8/8.1 is out? It takes Microsoft 14 years to completely stop support, and the same will go to XenForo. As of right now, all versions of XenForo (yes, including 1.0.x series) remain supported. I don't see how this will change when XenForo 2 comes out (it'd be more reasonable to just support the last 2 branches before 2, but you get the idea)

 

[Brent W]

First of all, 5.2 reached EOL 3 years ago.

As life goes on, things progress so should people, business etc...you want to be outdated, updated or ahead of others?

There will always be people using old stuff...you can't go on, innovate and progress by that in mind, even when 5.5 and 5.6 comes out there will be people still using 5.3 etc...so? Should the company not update and go on because some of their users use older versions which can easily upgrade and be compatible with the latest software?

What you don't understand though is that the majority of customers are not looking for cutting edge. They are looking for stability and a solid platform. They don't really care as long as things do what they are suppose to and do it well.

Some of the largest forums out there still use vBulletin 3 because of that very reason. It works, its tried and true and its a solid code base.

 

[Adam Howard]

Hello there,

i'm planning on creating a new forum, i really love xenforo, that's why i have a license of course!

But, with all that IPS 4 developing, IPB is tempting, but that's the main point of this thread.

The grass is NOT greener on the other side.

IPB has always been good at marketing and providing a good sales pitch. Add in their creative spin on things and skills in releasing a press releases..... I'd love to hire them to run an ad campaign because I'm fairly sure they could sell snow to eskimos and polar bears.

However, once you are past that sales pitch and you've actually bought into the company... I ran back to XenForo.

 

[James Freeman]

Comparing version 1 and version 2.2.5 that is the current version on Zend, there are really big improvements and upgrades, check the logs.

As for PHP 5.3 compared to 5.2 EOL, namespacing alone is well worth it, so is the improved spl_autoload

I really don't understand where you are coming from. Yes, people are still running 5.2 which could have security risks etc, but XenForo works fine on 5.2 -5.6, why do you care what version of ZF XF is using? What benefit is so great that the current version cannot do?

 

[digitalpoint]

Comparing version 1 and version 2.2.5 that is the current version on Zend, there are really big improvements and upgrades, check the logs.

As for PHP 5.3 compared to 5.2 EOL, namespacing alone is well worth it, so is the improved spl_autoload

Realistically it's not practical to make 5.3 the minimum required version (as others have pointed out, it's usually not something in their control... rather the hosting company).

Usage of 5.2.x is (slowly) declining, but it's still at 29.74% as of today, which sure would cut out a large percentage of potential XenForo customers.

Personally, I wish everyone would be on PHP 5.5 as a minimum, and then everyone dump that for PHP 5.6 in a few months. But yeah... 5.5.x usage is barely over 1%.