XenForo Website
- Thread starter Robbo
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Bob
Well-known member
As far as colaboration, I think that should be done here so that Kier and Mike can also be involved. I believe that Mike and Kier should also be involved with addon code standards (as the standards should conform to XF anyway).
I do agree that a WIKI would be very useful.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
Agreed. But maybe starting elsewhere ... show some progress ... and then Mike and Kier would be interested.
Otherwise ... I don't think Mike or Kier have any immediate plans to start such a venture ?(probably for good reason).
+definitely.
Quick side note: Bobster your Stock Trader Addon .... is that for tracking stocks that you have purchased ... or are you going to use it to actually purchase stocks ? As well, where do you get the data for it ... like where do you get the 1y Target Estimate for GOOG (Google) to be 725.71 ? By the way demo1 is underperforming ... GE GM ORCL and SE are all losing money since their purchase !
On further inspection alot of the top portfolios are underperforming ! Bobster: awesome demos by the way. Love the no hassle feel to them. To me it seems the "optimal needs" of developers are unlikely to happen at xenforo.com ... which will always be forced to have more of a "Support and Sales" need.
It might be a great place to demonstrate products as well.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
Yea, definitely. Cool site.
But maybe to start it would be more developer needs oriented.
Bob
Well-known member
Agreed. But maybe starting elsewhere ... show some progress ... and then Mike and Kier would be interested.
Otherwise ... I don't think Mike or Kier have any immediate plans to start such a venture ?(probably for good reason).
Quick side note: Bobster your Stock Trader Addon .... is that for tracking stocks that you have purchased ... or are you going to use it to actually purchase stocks ? As well, where do you get the data for it ... like where do you get the 1y Target Estimate for GOOG (Google) to be 725.71 ? By the way demo1 is underperforming ... GE GM ORCL and SE are all losing money since their purchase !
To me it seems the "optimal needs" of developers are unlikely to happen at xenforo.com ... which will always be forced to have more of a "Support and Sales" need.
It might be a great place to demonstrate products as well.
Its not about Mike and Kier starting it or leading it, its about involving them with as little time impact on them as possible. Doing something like this elsewhere would require them both to register there and go there to participate. They are busy enough as is, so doing it here would at least give us all a better chance of them participating which IMO is something that we should want.
F
Floris
Guest
I like the comment about getting Mike & Kier involved. And Ashley too hehe. With XenFans we've been in contact unofficially and made a few gentleman's agreements as things came up. This allowed us to prepare for what to come, give feedback of trends that we noticed, and get help or a more in-depth explanation when we were working on articles or interviews, etc. Direct involvement is impossible. They're all busy as you can imagine and can't disclose trade-secrets and alike. A flexible two-way street is required without expectations.
This has worked quite well. And we've learned what is clear that suits to be and stay on xenforo, and what xenfans could be to be on top of that. I hope Ragtek & Robbo have a site where this is somewhat the case as well. It would mean that there's really space for the xenforo universe to grow and expand over time. With the word of mouth benefitting xenforo and that there's a spot for people and things and code, etc that doesn't perhaps really fit xenforo itself. Without driving away business from kier/mike/ashley.
But don't expect them to be able to answer all your questions, at any day, within a certain amount of time. They have to run a business, fight lawsuits and be there for their friends and family, and still find time for themselves. Their involvement should be focussed on xenforo.com, any assistance beyond that is a courtesy.
And on the other end, while it's great that there's a resource manager in the works, we can't expect them to be like "we rather have devs work together on this site" attitude by us, and have them create a wiki for it. etc. If a wiki or in depth documentation is not suitable for this site at this point, either make it yourself, and do it off site, or wait a year or so until it is the right time.
I guess what I am trying to say is, think it through, because there's more to it than just starting a site, and getting 2 people involved, and expect kier and the rest to jump in because it benefits them. They might want to, they might just not be able to.
An example why a separate site can sit on top of an existing one is the marketplace, this sit has 1 forum, where there is no review system, no pricing scheme page, and no history on the seller of services or products. While there is a resource manager for products now, it doesn't come with a wiki, picture gallery, etc. Your own site could have a marketplace sub domain, support questions for the seller by customers in separate threads, testimonials, etc and all that. Perhaps not ideal for xenforo.com as it might clutter up the place, but perfect for a third party site. Getting together in a fan-powered spot means that it benefits everybody. While each individual seller can still have their own site, and can still advertise their services on that one forum on xenforo.
The same goes for articles, newsletters, etc. I wouldn't want a monthly newsletter about 'fun things going on with xenforo', but a a member on a fan site, it might be more interesting to see what sorta trends are evolving over time for xenforo. Or perhaps xenforo.com has a spot for articles, but discussing the pro/cons of points in an article usually leads to a closed thread if a discussion gets heated. Individual non-specific-to-xenforo but related to communities questions could be asked. A discussion about how it's so different from vBulletin might for example be more suited for a third party site. site-admins might get together for a chat about that and give insight. Multiple threads can spawn from an article, ideas can be shared and discussed. Rather than filling up a single thread on xenforo.com where mods have to spend time telling ppl to behave.
So I hope that if a site comes to fruit again (like xenfans) that it takes such a direction as well, and it is not just about "one site to rule them all, FOR ADDONS" ..
There are various ways to generate revenue without having to just charge a lot of money for custom add ons ..
Please think it all through a bit, as it doesn't have to be like vborg, or compared to it. And I hope Kier and mike and ashley appreciate the effort and when the owners of said site (hopefully one spokesperson) have comments or questions and they can work together somewhat, where possible.
Anyway, it's early, i am not making sense probably. Time for coffee and a walk.
This has worked quite well. And we've learned what is clear that suits to be and stay on xenforo, and what xenfans could be to be on top of that. I hope Ragtek & Robbo have a site where this is somewhat the case as well. It would mean that there's really space for the xenforo universe to grow and expand over time. With the word of mouth benefitting xenforo and that there's a spot for people and things and code, etc that doesn't perhaps really fit xenforo itself. Without driving away business from kier/mike/ashley.
But don't expect them to be able to answer all your questions, at any day, within a certain amount of time. They have to run a business, fight lawsuits and be there for their friends and family, and still find time for themselves. Their involvement should be focussed on xenforo.com, any assistance beyond that is a courtesy.
And on the other end, while it's great that there's a resource manager in the works, we can't expect them to be like "we rather have devs work together on this site" attitude by us, and have them create a wiki for it. etc. If a wiki or in depth documentation is not suitable for this site at this point, either make it yourself, and do it off site, or wait a year or so until it is the right time.
I guess what I am trying to say is, think it through, because there's more to it than just starting a site, and getting 2 people involved, and expect kier and the rest to jump in because it benefits them. They might want to, they might just not be able to.
An example why a separate site can sit on top of an existing one is the marketplace, this sit has 1 forum, where there is no review system, no pricing scheme page, and no history on the seller of services or products. While there is a resource manager for products now, it doesn't come with a wiki, picture gallery, etc. Your own site could have a marketplace sub domain, support questions for the seller by customers in separate threads, testimonials, etc and all that. Perhaps not ideal for xenforo.com as it might clutter up the place, but perfect for a third party site. Getting together in a fan-powered spot means that it benefits everybody. While each individual seller can still have their own site, and can still advertise their services on that one forum on xenforo.
The same goes for articles, newsletters, etc. I wouldn't want a monthly newsletter about 'fun things going on with xenforo', but a a member on a fan site, it might be more interesting to see what sorta trends are evolving over time for xenforo. Or perhaps xenforo.com has a spot for articles, but discussing the pro/cons of points in an article usually leads to a closed thread if a discussion gets heated. Individual non-specific-to-xenforo but related to communities questions could be asked. A discussion about how it's so different from vBulletin might for example be more suited for a third party site. site-admins might get together for a chat about that and give insight. Multiple threads can spawn from an article, ideas can be shared and discussed. Rather than filling up a single thread on xenforo.com where mods have to spend time telling ppl to behave.
So I hope that if a site comes to fruit again (like xenfans) that it takes such a direction as well, and it is not just about "one site to rule them all, FOR ADDONS" ..
There are various ways to generate revenue without having to just charge a lot of money for custom add ons ..
Please think it all through a bit, as it doesn't have to be like vborg, or compared to it. And I hope Kier and mike and ashley appreciate the effort and when the owners of said site (hopefully one spokesperson) have comments or questions and they can work together somewhat, where possible.
Anyway, it's early, i am not making sense probably. Time for coffee and a walk.
guiltar
Well-known member
That's why I asked about reconstructing XenFans instead of creating new unknown site - since Kier and Mike already in contact with it.
Kier and Mike are very busy. They may help you to fix an error but guess they don't have time to check your code standards and moreover discuss them.
My 2 cents.
- Official site is the management site. It has pre-sales questions, many offtopic threads etc.. Sometimes it's hard to catch interesting development discussion among 20 other threads in news feed. Dev site could fix that.
- I can contribute by setting up news system on the main page, wiki system and other things like threaded comments, modules, etc... And of coure I will take part in site life and filling out a wiki.
Sheldon
Well-known member
mrGTB
Well-known member
Problem is, people will always fall back to official site in the end. This type of thing was tried many times before at vBulletin, and by many different people over the years. Floris included, who even had his vB staff badge behind him to help the cause out when running vBulletin Fans. Some sites "half worked" and stopped around for a good while (although mostly unused), others vanished very fast. Same old story though each and every time, customers want it all located here, they always will the same as: vB.org.
What there should be for me, not that I think it's required now. Is a sister "XenForo.org" to deal with it all, but it's not needed, maybe further into the future at some point? You'll get also, some people who won't release their mod resource on another 3rd party site, they'll only release it here on the official site itself. It's that old mentality many forum owners have, they won't post their work on 3rd sites to help YOUR forum grow.
Robbo
Well-known member
When I said I tried I mean I tried here. Developers don't seem to even check the dev forums. And threads went unanswered. They aren't interested and neither am I anymore, I am on skype with a few devs and that will do for when I want to do this project.
Just to clear things up.
This would not be a site for add-on releases.
This would not primarily be a "standards" site.
This wouldn't be a sister site.
Think sitepoint for XenForo. It would mainly be a blog to help devs with tutorials etc. It would show off XenForo to new people and then it would have a community which would hopefully fill up with devs over time and then turn into some of the things discussed here. I would also like to do proper reviews of add-ons from the developer standpoint for people who submit their add-on for review.
Just to clear things up.
This would not be a site for add-on releases.
This would not primarily be a "standards" site.
This wouldn't be a sister site.
Think sitepoint for XenForo. It would mainly be a blog to help devs with tutorials etc. It would show off XenForo to new people and then it would have a community which would hopefully fill up with devs over time and then turn into some of the things discussed here. I would also like to do proper reviews of add-ons from the developer standpoint for people who submit their add-on for review.
If you were thinking a site based around your addons then I could see it working well. Having a few very good core addons that are well supported (like the vbadvanced site was, pretty much the only other site I used in addition to VBORG) and then a lot of dev/tutorial stuff would keep people interested. That's kind of where I saw xenfans going.
However, if you want it more as a community/dev site I really think it'd be great if it works but I don't think you have the critical mass of devs to keep it running. It'd end up being 5-10 of you at most and then people would drift off. Like you say, the dev forum here hardly gets much interest.
Anthony Parsons
Well-known member
I think this type of idea has always had the best of intentions, and it goes beyond just XF. Many a website have been made and go nowhere for all the reasons already mentioned here that developers have already run into.
Be realistic, Kier, Mike and Ashley have their hands full with Xenforo, they aren't going to have the time to help out on a Xenforo support / help type site. That is just realistic... of their time and everything going on in their lives.
Developers above have proved this already, with people saying, yer yer yer, then nothing much comes of it. Why? Because people love ideas, but very few actually stick around or go through with them when suddenly they find their time is being consumed, when mixed with income generation, family commitments, relaxation and so forth.
To be perfectly honest, the best thing anyone could do for Xenforo right now, is buy more XF products OR build products and distribute them freely to help XF grow as a community by getting more forums coming over to XF (thus you build an income stream for yourself in the long-term by giving in the short-term) OR create such excellent articles on XF directly to help developers, stylers and novices improve their forums, thus XF builds as a brand and longevity pays dividends to all developers at that later stage to sell their products and actually make good money.
That is how you start and boost viable business models. 99% of business models, especially websites, fail in the first 12 months because it is not as simple as "build it and they will come" nowadays.
Don't get me wrong, I think the intentions are extremely honourable by all above who propose such support. The problems though are all listed above.
I have a lot of experience in online marketing, and from that experience I can clearly make the above statements with accuracy.
If everyone concentrates here first, building Xenforo the brand and helping to attract more XF buyers because there are mods freely available covering many facets, then you are building yourself an income source through XF for your own future, as well as Xenforo's future.
That is how you build revenue online from something like Xenforo, due to Xenforo simply being so new to the forum market. Kier's name takes it so far... but a lot of people need free resources that they have with VB, IPB, PHPBB, MyBB, etc, before they will transfer over to XF. Cover those and get them out freely here, you just achieved what you want to achieve above, just at a later stage.
Developing and branding takes years, not a year or two. 0.000000000001% of websites become instantly popular. You have better chances of winning the lottery than making money from a third party Xenforo support type site at this stage in Xenforo's developmental career.
Many developers should already be able to see what I'm saying above through their own lack of sales from trying to sell Xenforo add-ons at this early stage. There are some really good developers at Xenforo, but people are all trying to scheme ideas, ideas, ideas, all of which do little at this stage of Xenforo's life. There needs to be more collective working together IMHO from developers to build, test and release stable, secure, viable products for free, with many developers supporting the products, not just one who gets tied down and then can't support them, thus issues develop.
There have already been enough issues with some developers getting to ambitious with building and releasing beta products and such, many of which sat around unsupported, unsold, going nowhere for months, because people don't want to buy beta add-ons, they want to buy stable add-ons. That is not a dig at any developer, it is just a marketing statistical fact for how consumers purchase.
A collective of developers would be the ultimate solution who are all familiar with a diverse range of products, freely distributed and supported, so if anyone is away, others cover support and additions if XF is upgraded, etc. I am not a developer, yet I can envisage it is time consuming to manage too many add-ons, hence the issues that are occurring by some who are trying for lots versus going for gold first and/or working together in collectives to support one another.
Again, this is what leads to developers income stream in later years. Developers will have a bright future for income from Xenforo in the coming years, if they can get past trying to make money in the beginning years. Nobody really makes money on initial startups, it takes years to generate good, healthy revenue.
Charging for add-ons too early / charging excessively is just the same as building a new site and plastering it in advertisements. People just move along and skip over it.
My two marketing cents...
Be realistic, Kier, Mike and Ashley have their hands full with Xenforo, they aren't going to have the time to help out on a Xenforo support / help type site. That is just realistic... of their time and everything going on in their lives.
Developers above have proved this already, with people saying, yer yer yer, then nothing much comes of it. Why? Because people love ideas, but very few actually stick around or go through with them when suddenly they find their time is being consumed, when mixed with income generation, family commitments, relaxation and so forth.
To be perfectly honest, the best thing anyone could do for Xenforo right now, is buy more XF products OR build products and distribute them freely to help XF grow as a community by getting more forums coming over to XF (thus you build an income stream for yourself in the long-term by giving in the short-term) OR create such excellent articles on XF directly to help developers, stylers and novices improve their forums, thus XF builds as a brand and longevity pays dividends to all developers at that later stage to sell their products and actually make good money.
That is how you start and boost viable business models. 99% of business models, especially websites, fail in the first 12 months because it is not as simple as "build it and they will come" nowadays.
Don't get me wrong, I think the intentions are extremely honourable by all above who propose such support. The problems though are all listed above.
I have a lot of experience in online marketing, and from that experience I can clearly make the above statements with accuracy.
If everyone concentrates here first, building Xenforo the brand and helping to attract more XF buyers because there are mods freely available covering many facets, then you are building yourself an income source through XF for your own future, as well as Xenforo's future.
That is how you build revenue online from something like Xenforo, due to Xenforo simply being so new to the forum market. Kier's name takes it so far... but a lot of people need free resources that they have with VB, IPB, PHPBB, MyBB, etc, before they will transfer over to XF. Cover those and get them out freely here, you just achieved what you want to achieve above, just at a later stage.
Developing and branding takes years, not a year or two. 0.000000000001% of websites become instantly popular. You have better chances of winning the lottery than making money from a third party Xenforo support type site at this stage in Xenforo's developmental career.
Many developers should already be able to see what I'm saying above through their own lack of sales from trying to sell Xenforo add-ons at this early stage. There are some really good developers at Xenforo, but people are all trying to scheme ideas, ideas, ideas, all of which do little at this stage of Xenforo's life. There needs to be more collective working together IMHO from developers to build, test and release stable, secure, viable products for free, with many developers supporting the products, not just one who gets tied down and then can't support them, thus issues develop.
There have already been enough issues with some developers getting to ambitious with building and releasing beta products and such, many of which sat around unsupported, unsold, going nowhere for months, because people don't want to buy beta add-ons, they want to buy stable add-ons. That is not a dig at any developer, it is just a marketing statistical fact for how consumers purchase.
A collective of developers would be the ultimate solution who are all familiar with a diverse range of products, freely distributed and supported, so if anyone is away, others cover support and additions if XF is upgraded, etc. I am not a developer, yet I can envisage it is time consuming to manage too many add-ons, hence the issues that are occurring by some who are trying for lots versus going for gold first and/or working together in collectives to support one another.
Again, this is what leads to developers income stream in later years. Developers will have a bright future for income from Xenforo in the coming years, if they can get past trying to make money in the beginning years. Nobody really makes money on initial startups, it takes years to generate good, healthy revenue.
Charging for add-ons too early / charging excessively is just the same as building a new site and plastering it in advertisements. People just move along and skip over it.
My two marketing cents...
mrGTB
Well-known member
To be perfectly honest with you Anthony, it's easy to say that. But with no news updates posted saying what the script is right now, or what we can expect to see happening over the coming weeks, months e.t.c (written in an announcement now, not 2 months ago). That's asking a lot really, it swings both ways I'm afraid. Like it not, that's just the way it is for many, myself included. I won't invest more money into something, when it seems very hard to get anything out of them.
Anthony Parsons
Well-known member
There isn't anything to report, hence people watch the case update thread. You can choose to roll over in fear and do nothing, or you can choose to get on with it and if the worst happened in later years, then you deal with it then. If the support doesn't occur now though, it won't be there in the coming years.
You kind of have to make a choice one way or the other now, not later, and not worry about "what if's" that you have no idea about, nor do XF obviously.
I could add, if people have that attitude, then Xenforo wouldn't have IGN running its software, people like Shawn working diligently on shifting Digital Point forums over to Xenforo and other big boards out there. It has to be full steam ahead with Xenforo here and in the marketplace, otherwise it all falls down for everyone.
VB are all falling down for their sloppy practices... the same could happen to any forum software if customers and supporters aren't actively engaged in supporting the product due to fear or such.
You kind of have to make a choice one way or the other now, not later, and not worry about "what if's" that you have no idea about, nor do XF obviously.
I could add, if people have that attitude, then Xenforo wouldn't have IGN running its software, people like Shawn working diligently on shifting Digital Point forums over to Xenforo and other big boards out there. It has to be full steam ahead with Xenforo here and in the marketplace, otherwise it all falls down for everyone.
VB are all falling down for their sloppy practices... the same could happen to any forum software if customers and supporters aren't actively engaged in supporting the product due to fear or such.
mrGTB
Well-known member
It has nothing to do with "fear", more "concern" after reading that last announcement. We're all entitled to our own thoughts. I get your point about IGN and Shawn working full steam ahead, fair enough. But we're not all Shawn or IGN, each person is different, and with different funding levels to keep buying products. Some require a little more said before deciding to part with their hard earned cash.
Robbo
Well-known member
For the record. I will be doing this for money, not just some free website for people. I do this stuff for a living, I don't make money (currently all work is with XenForo ) on stuff like this then I don't do it... did too much free stuff in the past and it just isn't worth it.
) on stuff like this then I don't do it... did too much free stuff in the past and it just isn't worth it.Similar threads
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