Thank you Chief Justice Roberts, you are a wise man.
- Thread starter Digital Doctor
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Cal
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You are 100% right when you thank Roberts. He just gave Romney another bullet and another nail in the Obama campaigns campaign (I've lost count of how many he has now). It's been ruled Obamacare is either a tax or an illegal penalty. It's a tax now and it's effecting the middle class and the lower class - this hurts Obama which is why he's coming out denying it's a tax....which then makes it an illegal penalty. Double edged sword here as Obama can't escape this one and will take reputation damage either direction.
As for Obamacare in general...it's a behemoth of a bill that needs to be shot with a silver bullet before it can kill our healthcare system. It raises premiums, decreases standard of care within insurance coverage, and taxes the American people in an economy whereas they cannot be taxed anymore. This doensn't even take into account that doctors are running from this bill that would raise malpractice insurance rates, lessen their options on how to treat patients, and reduce freedoms in their practice. Lastly, but certainly not least, the democrats packed so many pork projects into this bill that our children's grand children will still be paying off this bill.
It cannot stand, and will not stand, and America will not allow it to stand. Romney 2012. Romney must be celebrating and it's reason #100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 why Obama has no shot in November. America is not stupid enough to vote Obama back into office after the past 4 years.
Digital Doc....feel free to wander into my political playground if you really think Obama has a shot in November. You might be surprised
I'll just leave this here. It seems appropriate
Jason
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That would be disastrous.
The problem isn't Congress. It's us. We, as a nation, don't take voting seriously. The result is crooked politicians getting elected to office, and re-elected when their term is up. Our system would work (better) if people took their responsibilities more seriously.
BGL
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Or a vulture capitalist. Taking over US manufacturers, bankrupting the company while pocketing big dollars and stashing them in Swiss bank accounts. Why would anyone want a vulture capitalist for president after the lessons of the Great Recession?
BGL
Well-known member
Just to be clear. The Supreme Court did not rule that Obamacare, which is a lot of good stuff, is a tax. What the Supreme Court ruled was Obamacare's mandatory requirement that people purchase health care insurance was legal under the government's power to tax since the penalty for not purchasing private insurance is that the government will then tax you to pay for your health care. Obamacare is mandatory, private health insurance. I object to that and think it should be unconstitutional for government to require purchase of Wall St products. Real health care reform would have been public option, ability of employees and employers to buy into Medicare. That was Wall St's big objection to original plan to offer public option, that everyone choose the low overhead, low cost, 100% coverage of a public option vs. the Wall St products which have dubious value vis a vis health care coverage.
The fact that the private insurance is a mandatory purchase is why GOP made the Obamacare proposals as an alternative to Clintoncare in 1993 and why Obamacare is the same as Romneycare in Massachusetts.
The fact that Obamacare = Romneycare pretty much robs Romney of any credibility on the issue. He's going to get toasted on this in EVERY debate. I don't see that Romney will have an answer for how it's pro-business health care plan when GOP and Romney propose it but "socialism" when Obama passes the identical legislation?
BGL
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Well we did elect Obama and Democratic Congress to pass public option health care reform and to end lobbyist control of government, can't really blame public for not turning out and doing its duty. You can blame Obama for abandoning his campaign promises to have public option health care.
Cal
Well-known member
Obamacare was listed as a tax BGL. That was his exact finding and documented in SCOTUS records. That's why Romney is profiting from this, and no matter how the liberals try to spin the topic the double ended sword pointed at their guts will not change direction. It is what it is, and no excuses will change it. Romnycare isn't even close to the magnitude of Obamacare FYI. Obama's bill is socialism in work, and any student of history is smart enough to recognize this. Especially myself as I chose Nazi Germany as my topic of expertise (hobby...took college classes never amounted to historian degree though, not yet) - idk it was just interesting. Point is there are vulnerabilities that the liberals are denying, but really cannot deny.
Feels odd debating here. I'm still gonna be nice to you all
. The politics niche is brutal though, as an admin you need to have the ability to tear someone apart. It's a difficult niche. lol.
BGL
Well-known member
No. Its imposition of mandatory purchase of Wall St. insurance products in lieu of health care was ruled legal under the government's taxing authority. The tax is completely avoidable. It's why many on the left, myself included, were hoping the Supreme Court would rule the mandatory purchase was illegal but the health care tax was legal opening the way for Medicare for All.
Since Romneycare in Massachusetts is the identical mandatory purchase of Wall St insurance products as Obamacare, it is hard to see how Romney is not going to be damaged by the credibility issue it creates for Romney. He's trying to run on his record as Mass. governor but wants to repeal his own signature health care reform in Mass. He's created an impossible political position for himself.
BGL
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It should be along with sex and religion.
BGL
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On the issue of taxes, that's more a ideological purity issue for GOP right wing. American public consistently supports higher taxes to pay off Reaganomics deficit and debt. Remember Obama was elected to kill the Bush Reaganomics tax cuts and one of the reasons those who formed the winning majority of 2008 that elected Obama are angry at Obama is because he didn't keep his campaign promise to kill the Bush tax cuts.
Cal
Well-known member
Regardless. America does not want this bill, and it is not the reform we need. We wont vote for a leader who has corrupted this nation for the past 4 years. We will not succumb to this madness. Our rights are being stolen every month with this leader who is in office. The congress cannot protect him - he'll just bypass them (an impeachable action to all but this leader it seems). This is why a majority of the nation, except sheeple, will vote Nobama in whichever direction that leads.s.
Romney is an unknown variable, but Obama is a known dead end. America is not stupid enough to put him back into office, especially when reflecting at his failure over the past 4 years.
/still in very nice Cal debate mode :-/ (your killing me. I want to say more in this debate, but wont, don't want escalation on this non-political board. lol.)
Jason
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Voter turn out for the 2008 election is pretty much the exception, not the norm. This country suffers from voter apathy, not just on a national level but local level as well. Most Americans don't take a lot of interest in the political process, but then complain when their elected representatives fail them rather than hold them accountable at the polls. Business as usual at the polls will not promote change anywhere else.
Obama didn't abandon "public option," you can blame (marginal) Democrats and Republicans for that, who backed a version of the bill that contained it before deciding the whole thing was unconstitutional.
BGL
Well-known member
Perhaps but it was the public turning out to vote for change specifically to health care, reforms Obama outlined during the 2008 campaign including most current reforms plus public option. That Obama failed to try to deliver on so many of his campaign promises, public option on health care, killing the Bush tax cuts, global warming progress, less oil use policies is what has turned those new voters off in 2012.
But you can't blame the voters in this case, the did the right thing in record numbers and got burned. It devalued their vote because they got a Bush III presidency when the voted for specific changes away from the Bush policies of 2000-08.
No the country suffers from a failure of political leadership. Public did its part, came out in record number for good positive changes.
BGL
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Public is OK with the health care reform bill. Roughly 50% like it and of the 50% who don't like it, they are divided 50-50 between those who don't like because it should have gone further with public option, Medicare for All and run the insurance industry out of health care and those who just don't want health care reform. That means you have roughly 75% of the people who are OK with Obamacare and only 25% who oppose the healthcare reform. Health care is a bad issue for GOP for three reasons.
1. Public wants health care reform.
2. 75% support the reforms we just got.
3. Romneycare = Obamacare and Romney is running against himself on the issue of health care.
Cal
Well-known member
There's no getting through to you
We call the dedicated Obama supporters..Sheeple. You guys would see the world destroyed as long as Obama reassured you.
Sure you don't want to come onto my forum??
There's not much to say. The facts have been said, and the adversaries are in denial mode (a common liberal defense). Not much to be interested about lol. //done with the deniers.
BGL
Well-known member
Oh dear...that's quite dated...goes back to Barry Goldwater days. He was not successful with it either.
I'm actually an Obama critic as he failed to pass public option health care reform, failed to kill Bush tax cuts, failed to close Guantanamo, cut Social Security funding, cut Medicare/Medicaid services, attacked teachers and unions, passed a too small, too GOP tax cuts stimulus package, pushed the Bush "drill baby drill" oil policies, defending BP and opening up US East coast to oil drilling, domestic spying...Obama is Bush III based on his policies so I'm no Obama fan.
Just pointing out that Obamacare is not a tax and the Supreme Court did not rule it a tax but ruled that Obamacare's action of mandatory purchase of Wall St insurance products was legal based on US government power to tax.
Cal
Well-known member
Yet tax was the exact words they used....we can say what we want, anytime we want, using any words we want. However the media was hinged on this and the exact ruling was a tax.
..and for someone who criticizes Obama you might want to prioritize a bit.
Even still. It is what it is. Most of America now regards it as a tax in addition (to old feelings) that it is undesirable. We can't afford it, and we deserve better. No matter what happens this still ends up a loss for the Obama campaign.
BGL
Well-known member
Again no. The Supreme ruled that Obamacare was legal in making purchase of Wall St insurance products mandatory under the goverment's power to tax, not that mandatory purchase of Wall St products was a tax. While I realize this appears to be big issue in the Fox News echo chamber of birthers and climate deniers, in the real world, poll after poll, the US voters are OK with tax increases to fix the problems of Reaganomics. Obama won election on repealing the Bush tax cuts.
GOP can appeal to its more extreme minority but issue of health care reform and taxes is going to hurt the GOP with moderates and independents as they favor health care reform and tax reform including increases especially the tax increases Obama is pushing in 2012, just on those earning over $250,000.
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