Thank you Chief Justice Roberts, you are a wise man.

[Jake Bunce]

American politics is mostly about opposition and distrust. If you want to convince an American of your political position then you must exploit the nature of their politics. Upon entering a political discussion you need to ally yourself with the group you are trying to convince. Remember, the mode is opposition, not proposition. For example, to ally myself with a group of democrats I must introduce myself not as a democrat but as hating republicans. Now I have their trust because we share the same opponent. This works much better than standard propositional arguments.

 

[BlackJacket]

I see a lot of back and forth banter, but no facts (links) to support your opinions. Either post supporting documentation or let everyone know this is your opinion and not fact... This is a general statement to the majority of those arguing a point in this thread. Not directed to any single individual.

 

[dutchbb]

This is another interesting video on this topic:

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[Cal]

American politics is mostly about opposition and distrust. If you want to convince an American of your political position then you must exploit the nature of their politics. Upon entering a political discussion you need to ally yourself with the group you are trying to convince. Remember, the mode is opposition, not proposition. For example, to ally myself with a group of democrats I must introduce myself not as a democrat but as hating republicans. Now I have their trust because we share the same opponent. This works much better than standard propositional arguments.

The political niche ends up being a mud slinging fest by several forum factions. We try to keep to keep it balanced, and keep everything fair, and we finally have these users lining one another...but things can go to hell in a hand basket in seconds flat. It's quite stressful I'll give you that.

@Blackjacket...that's because we both know the topic we are debating. We can look up whatever we need to on our own as we go. It's always best to do your own research.

 

[Pereira]

I see a lot of back and forth banter, but no facts (links) to support your opinions. Either post supporting documentation or let everyone know this is your opinion and not fact... This is a general statement to the majority of those arguing a point in this thread. Not directed to any single individual.

Exactly. A debate usually involves some sort of argument which can be backed up by strong evidence. Non of that is being presented here.

 

[Cal]

Exactly. A debate usually involves some sort of argument which can be backed up by strong evidence. Non of that is being presented here.

Alright then. Since you guys don't want to do your own research. There's enough being presented here for me and BGL....we both know the topic. You guys want to follow along. I got that....fine.

Hot off the presses...

July 12, 2012 - American Voters Say Health Care Law Is A Tax Hike, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Most Want Arizona-Type Immigration Law In Their State​

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In a nutshell....​

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The Affordable Care Act (ACA) is a tax hike, American voters say 55 - 36 percent,

voters agree 48 - 45 percent with the U.S. Supreme Court decision upholding the law

49 - 43 percent [say] that the U.S. Congress should repeal it

55 percent of American voters say a presidential candidate's position on health care is "extremely important" or "very important" to their vote in November

While 59 percent say the Supreme Court decision will not affect their vote, 27 percent say it will make them less likely to vote for President Barack Obama, while 12 percent say more likely. Independent voters say less likely 27 - 9 percent.

American voters split 48 - 47 percent on whether people should be required to have health insurance.​

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The rest is about Eric Holder and Fast & Furious...which is interesting, but an entirely different topic. Feel free to read it too.

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[craigiri]

I think that the charts show much of the "debate". We pay more and get less. Oh, the prices are way up from these levels already....
Cal is showing us the answers to loaded questions...which contain no data at all. In fact, the American Public had a 70% approval of "Government solving the healthcare problem" right up until 2008, when massive amounts of money and propaganda were thrown at the question....the only logical conclusion being that propaganda does work.

 

[Cal]

Cal is showing us the answers to loaded questions...which contain no data at all.

I linked you to a UNIVERSITY. Are you blind????

craigiri is showing us images.....images oh yah...unverifiable, untraceable, and uncited images. Amazing.....

 

[Pereira]

Alright then. Since you guys don't want to do your own research. There's enough being presented here for me and BGL....we both know the topic. You guys want to follow along. I got that....fine.

Hot off the presses...

July 12, 2012 - American Voters Say Health Care Law Is A Tax Hike, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Most Want Arizona-Type Immigration Law In Their State​

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Well no, I don't think a software company community is a good place political discussion, but if your going try it, at least try to do it right.

 

[craigiri]

I linked you to a UNIVERSITY. Are you blind????

I am very familiar with polls. You linked to a poll.

If you are instead going to link to actual research or data, try to find it.

Quick summary of topic.

We spend about 17-18% of GDP on health care, even with leaving 50 million uninsured.
Countries with universal health care typically spend 8-12% for better results.
We spend the highest per capital on health care in the world - by far.
Our results, overall, are way down the list - depending on the exact item they are from 6th to 37th.
Most medical pros (3/4) in Ma. approve of the universal health care (RomneyCare) here.
Ma, with universal coverage, has double the docs per capital of Texas (25% uninsured), even though Texas has instituted the GOP plan (tort reform, etc.).

De Nile is a river in Egypt. We have run the well dry - squeezed people, the government and corporations dry at the altar of "predatory health care". It doesn't work. No other country in the world does it. Period.

 

[BGL]

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Alright then. Since you guys don't want to do your own research. There's enough being presented here for me and BGL....we both know the topic. You guys want to follow along. I got that....fine

Sorry but internet surveys and pop polls, many of Fox News viewers who we know get 80% of news fact wrong, are irrelevant to the facts here.

Obama care requires mandatory purchase of Wall St insurance products. This is not a tax. There is a tax imposed IF YOU DO NO PURCHASE THE PRIVATE INDUSTRY PRODUCTS. This was the LEGAL JUSTIFICATION for government powers to REQUIRE MANDATORY PURCHASE OF PRIVATE INDUSTRY PRODUCT.

As with its twin in Massachusetts, Romneycare, for 95% of participants, Obamacare means having to purchase a Wall St insurance product vs. health care services. For the 5% who do not purchase a Wall St insurance product, they do get taxed until they comply. The fact that Romney defended his plan as not being a tax for the same reasons he now claims Obamacare is a tax is why it is not a sustainable argument and one likely to cost Romney more votes both with moderates and independents and even with the GOP/Tea Party base who campaigned against Romney in the primaries on this very issue, that Romneycare = Obamacare and Romney was a socialist.

 

[BGL]

Well no, I don't think a software company community is a good place political discussion, but if your going try it, at least try to do it right.

With so many coders being independent contractors without health care coverage, the health care debate is relevant for what it means to people who have to pay cash for health care services or have to pay 100% of their own insurance and sort through plans, costs and risks. While requiring the independent software contractors to get purchase insurance it will make that purchase transparent and health care markets established under the law, help them keep that cost as low as possible.

 

[Cal]

This is why xen should not go into politics. You guys demand proof, I give proof, proof is suddenly not good enough. Long story short....you guys don't care, don't want to care, and are so rooted in your opinions already it doesn't matter what anyone tells you....you wont care. Wasted effort on my part - apologies. If you cared you'd be on a political board and not a software board, my mistake obviously.

 

[DBA]

This is why xen should not go into politics. You guys demand proof, I give proof, proof is suddenly not good enough. Long story short....you guys don't care, don't want to care, and are so rooted in your opinions already it doesn't matter what anyone tells you....you wont care. Wasted effort on my part - apologies. If you cared you'd be on a political board and not a software board, my mistake obviously.

There's no getting through to you

This is why I gave up awhile ago. lol

 

[Pereira]

With so many coders being independent contractors without health care coverage, the health care debate is relevant for what it means to people who have to pay cash for health care services or have to pay 100% of their own insurance and sort through plans, costs and risks. While requiring the independent software contractors to get purchase insurance it will make that purchase transparent and health care markets established under the law, help them keep that cost as low as possible.

I don't live in America so this has literally no impact on me.

Regrading politics on the internet in general, I don't believe I have ever seen a political discussion where one side has suddenly conformed to the others point of view. Bias plays a large role in politics and it's either to one group or one ideology. It usually takes much more than a few lines of text to change that. That's why we get the typical (and usually hypocritical) response that one side wont change their opinions no matter what is said.

So in short, I find these types of discussions utterly worthless, especially on a software company community.

 

[BGL]

So in short, I find these types of discussions utterly worthless, especially on a software company community.

Generally agree. It only serves to find areas of disagreement vs. the purpose of the software forums which is to build a community of users around the common interest of the software.

 

[Jake Bunce]

The point of agreement now seems to be that this thread is worthless so I might as well kill it. It had a good run.