[TH] Filter [Deleted]

[ThemeHouse]

ThemeHouse submitted a new resource:

[TH] Filter - Dynamic forum filtering

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[Kerby]

Nice. Can it filter custom fields?

Is the animation deactivable?

 

[Dad.]

Nice. Can it filter custom fields?

Hmm its possible with a custom addon Id assume, but since custom fields I believe are tied to nodes it would be hard to build an interface on that. Not impossible.

Is the animation deactivable?

Yeah that animation is actually specific to UI.X Pro/UI.X themes, and doesn't ship with this product. And its configurable in those themes for those who have UI.X themes.

 

[Dad.]

This is copied from a post I made on the Topics thread, but since that thread will be getting deleted thought I'd post here as well:

To all who bought Topics or were interested in it:

We spent A LOT of time trying to build Topics. And I say trying because it was a flawed idea from the beginning. The idea was to build a modern interface into XenForo and abstract away forum nodes or thread prefixes. We decided that the proper way to build the experience was instead to use existing structures, who would have thought. Our team had a lot of internal debate and discussion on the best way to accomodate this and what we ended up on was Topics.

Fast forward to using it for about a year, we had a breakthrough moment where it was quite obvious what a simpler solution would be to accomplish almost the same thing. Now it is true that what we came up with is not as grandeous of a goal as what Topics is, but it gives the users a much better experience in finding and discovering content AND it gives the admin next to nothing to setup (as we use existing structures entirely).

What we end up with is Filter. It requires no maintenance, no changing of structures you have (though we have some recommendations perhaps for making your experience more modern and enticing to new users if you need that), and is a MUUCCCH simpler product for us to maintain.

I want to thank EVERYONE who helped build Topics. It was a huge undertaking and through that experience we learned of a proper perspective to take, with Filter. We are retiring Topics by deleting the resource probably sometime next week. Anyone who bought Topics will get a free license for Filter, no matter what time you bought it. If our coupon on the Filter page gives you issue just reach out to support.

View a demo of Filter: https://demo.themehouse.com/xf2/uix-pro/threads/latest
See the product page: https://xenforo.com/community/resources/th-filter.7522/
A basic perspective of Topics vs Filter: https://www.themehouse.com/blog/filter-vs-topics-whats-the-difference

 

[adamgreenough]

How does it work with pagination? Does it filter across all pages and create a new pagination?

 

[Dad.]

How does it work with pagination? Does it filter across all pages and create a new pagination?

My apologies what do you mean by all pages? The way I would explain it is that if you are on one of the following views: All threads, Trending (A TH Product), New Posts, New Threads, and technically we could make other pages, pagination use does not require a new page refresh. This will not work on say thread view or something as this addon really just focuses on index page experiences.

 

[adamgreenough]

My apologies what do you mean by all pages? The way I would explain it is that if you are on one of the following views: All threads, Trending (A TH Product), New Posts, New Threads, and technically we could make other pages, pagination use does not require a new page refresh. This will not work on say thread view or something as this addon really just focuses on index page experiences.

Ah, gotcha, I was thinking about using within an individual node where threads are on say pages of 20 - 30 depending on settings. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Dad.]

Ah, gotcha, I was thinking about using within an individual node where threads are on say pages of 20 - 30 depending on settings. Thanks for the clarification!

Yeah its possible we could extend the scope of Filter to include Forum/Thread views (wherein things like node specific custom fields or whatever could work) - definitely an option to consider. For now we focused on just the premise and the index page experience. Some people prefer node list experiences still, and this could work in conjunction with or in exchange of that.

 

[sbj]

Fast forward to using it for about a year, we had a breakthrough moment

With all respect, it took you a year and a breakthrough to realize that you can just take XF's What's new page (or new posts page) and make it filterable by prefix and node?

I try really hard to become a TH customer but you guys have no love for any of your addons including this one. There is so much more you could have done for "TH Filter". I am no dev but it takes probably literally 2 big JOIN SQL commands to provide the information this addon does. One "take new posts and display where node x" and the other one "take new posts and display where prefix x".

The approach and idea of enhancing the index page experience is the right direction, hence why XF introduced What's new page (which is confusing and not well done imo) because there is a demand for this. But like all of your other addons, this lacks so many things you could have done here. Maybe this is your business approach, I don't know.

And all suggestions will land in "let me create a case on github" but with no outcome. I really don't understand where you invest all the money you get, probably 99% in support time because of bugs caused by your complex javascript based additions. You are the biggest company here in XF. Maybe my expectations are too high but I am disappointed in the way you guys handle your addons. I hope you take this feedback as a supporting one. Thanks.

 

[Dad.]

With all respect, it took you a year and a breakthrough to realize that you can just take XF's What's new page (or new posts page) and make it filterable by prefix and node?

I try really hard to become a TH customer but you guys have no love for any of your addons including this one. There is so much more you could have done for "TH Filter". I am no dev but it takes probably literally 2 big JOIN SQL commands to provide the information this addon does. One "take new posts and display where node x" and the other one "take new posts and display where prefix x".

The approach and idea of enhancing the index page experience is the right direction, hence why XF introduced What's new page (which is confusing and not well done imo) because there is a demand for this. But like all of your other addons, this lacks so many things you could have done here. Maybe this is your business approach, I don't know.

And all suggestions will land in "let me create a case on github" but with no outcome. I really don't understand where you invest all the money you get, probably 99% in support time because of bugs caused by your complex javascript based additions. You are the biggest company here in XF. Maybe my expectations are too high but I am disappointed in the way you guys handle your addons.

I appreciate the feedback. Thank you for taking the time.

You'd be surprised how much love went into Topics. Filter is a simpler approach to the huge concept we tried to solve. XenForo was the wrong framework for us to use to attempt to build something like Topics, we tried to make it work and it just did not. Fault me for trying, as I so often see, but I am indeed trying to come up with interesting ideas that improve the common issues we see. And it used to be fun, I don't think anyone comes to a community like this if they did not find the development or problem solving enjoyable, at least at one point.

Building every feature under the sun is just not viable. If we build huge feature systems they are more prone to issues with updates or third party addons or whatever else. If we build smaller systems, we get faulted for them being to simple. This is a fight I no longer care to be in generally speaking.

At the end of the day, I agree with you, logging your issue to GitHub is not always the most useful. But what other option do we have? Some issues get logged and others offer to pay for that development. Some get covered for free, some sit around forever. There will never be a golden option. I do what I think is best and thats all I can say.

We have an announcement soon about our future here at XenForo. For now, we have thousands of customers who appreciate when we release little things like this. For those, we are very grateful for the support - very much so. Maybe addons like this won't solve all their problems, but maybe it will do a little and I'm OK with that. Our goal from here is to move into building successful platforms as we have done so for the last few years. The era of addons and themes for us is over.

 

[sbj]

I don't fault you for trying new things. I actually liked the direction of Topics or now with this addon. But it feels underdeveloped. You could have put some more features into this. I am not expecting for you to put every feature, but you guys leave your stuff unpolished. I get the Jon W vibe from your approach all around, which was not a good experience for many of us.

Anyway, this addon as it is is still nice for what it is. Hope it evolves with time. But reading your last paragraph, it sounds like you are leaving addons and themes behind you, which brings up the next questions about what will happen in the future. Well, your announcement will clear it up I guess.

Thanks.

 

[adamgreenough]

We have an announcement soon about our future here at XenForo. For now, we have thousands of customers who appreciate when we release little things like this. For those, we are very grateful for the support - very much so. Maybe addons like this won't solve all their problems, but maybe it will do a little and I'm OK with that. Our goal from here is to move into building successful platforms as we have done so for the last few years. The era of addons and themes for us is over.

This is bit worrying. I was interested in this add-on but not if it won’t be supported long term. Will you still be supporting existing items? I rely on a few of your great TH products.

 

[willl]

I will say, as someone who got to extensively test this, I definitely love Filter over Topics.

I am relatively young on the TH team, but holy crap, everybody at TH is incredibly sharp, and it shows in their work.

Filter is one of those "deceptively simple" addons. The end result seems so simple, but the actual engineering behind it is more than you might expect. While doing testing and comparisons to Topics, I couldn't help but think about the comparisons between Mac & PC (and, FYI, I'm a Windows & *nix user). There's a lot going on under the hood to ensure that Filter "just plain works".

Not to say Topics is bad; it's just a different approach to a similar, but not quite the same, problem (in my perspective). I myself got overwhelmed by all the configuration that went into Topics, and when making themes, the more complicated an addon, the harder it can be to work with. Still, Topics was pretty dang cool, even though it required a fair amount of effort to use to its potential.

Ultimately, Filter does what it set out to do.. And it does it VERY well. Really hoping any XF-based communities I visit utilize it, because it is a fantastic UX.

 

[Dad.]

Well, no need to worry, our core goal is shifting into supporting, building, engineering, designing, etc. quality communities in general and less about themes, add-ons, products or whatnot. That entire branch of our company has been lagging behind the rest of our team. We are launching a new website, new brand design, and yes will have a new announcement that'll clear it up. I just wanted to directly respond to @sbj as they make a good point about the model in general.

am not expecting for you to put every feature, but you guys leave your stuff unpolished. I get the Jon W vibe from your approach all around, which was not a good experience for many of us.

Ill never throw a team member under the bus, but at the same time there were some concerns with quality and indeed Jon was only with us for a brief time. He has not been with us I think since late last year/early this year. I know he left many in the XF community in a tough spot, something which we tried to help with.

 

[meganrose]

@willl I agree. It is so much more user friendly.

I will say, as someone who got to extensively test this, I definitely love Filter over Topics.

I am relatively young on the TH team, but holy crap, everybody at TH is incredibly sharp, and it shows in their work.

Filter is one of those "deceptively simple" addons. The end result seems so simple, but the actual engineering behind it is more than you might expect. While doing testing and comparisons to Topics, I couldn't help but think about the comparisons between Mac & PC (and, FYI, I'm a Windows & *nix user). There's a lot going on under the hood to ensure that Filter "just plain works".

Not to say Topics is bad; it's just a different approach to a similar, but not quite the same, problem (in my perspective). I myself got overwhelmed by all the configuration that went into Topics, and when making themes, the more complicated an addon, the harder it can be to work with. Still, Topics was pretty dang cool, even though it required a fair amount of effort to use to its potential.

Ultimately, Filter does what it set out to do.. And it does it VERY well. Really hoping any XF-based communities I visit utilize it, because it is a fantastic UX.

 

[Dalton Prock]

It isn't so much about which is better between Topics and Filter, as both are equally amazing add-ons. I've been on this team for quite a while and have provided support for Topics back and forth. Topics has been used on a lot of major sites; I honestly can't believe how amazing it looks. Even though when I set up Topics, it took some time to get it how I want it.

But now it is time to start a new chapter with Filter which is even simpler and looks amazing on any theme.

I can verify that it is much simpler to set up than Topics was as can most of my fellow team members who tested it with me before release. Now that it's been released, I really hope that many of you within the XenForo Community can grab it and enjoy it!

 

[Kintaro]

Hmm its possible with a custom addon Id assume, but since custom fields I believe are tied to nodes it would be hard to build an interface on that. Not impossible.

Something like make custom fields filter appear online if you are viewing/selecting a particular node...
And it can became a true killer addon if it will support filtering custom field from other addons (from addons that follow XFRM standards about custom fields)

 

[Lukas W.]

I really don't understand where you invest all the money you get, probably 99% in support time because of bugs caused by your complex javascript based additions. You are the biggest company here in XF.

It's a very simple calculation, which we've (on the side) mentioned quite a lot of times. If you do the math, you'll very quickly notice that add-ons (and themes) are not what keeps this company alive, and never could. The entire sales of XenForo keeps (I think) four people employed. Our customer base for add-ons and themes is specifically limited to people that buy XenForo in the first place, and not everybody who buys XenForo also buys add-ons and themes and not everybody who does buys from us, so we very quickly get down to only a fraction of XenForo customers actually buying our add-ons and themes. On average our add-ons cost around 38 USD, 40 if you want to make this an easier calculation, and our themes all cost 35 USD each. For simplicity lets say the average person buys an add-on and a theme from us, that would make us 75 USD per sold XenForo license. XenForo is 160, so we're slightly below half, which would mean these sales would be able to finance two people. So with all due respect, do you really think we generate revenue from providing add-ons and themes for sale here? There's a very good reason why every other named developer here is a one-man show and nearly all of them are mainly living off providing direct services, where add-ons only take a supporting role if they do it for a living.

Being a company also raises the cost of development very sharply. Yes, a developer may only cost 30-40 bucks an hour, but not everyone at a development company is a developer. Not everybodys work time directly results into profit. Human resources - to pick just one field - is generally a very good example for this. While absolutely necessary (god, I don't want to know where we would be without @Sarah Worthylake ), that's work time without direct profit, which needs to be funded somewhere else. Everybody who hired us knows that you don't get very far for 35, or even 300 bucks on private development time. And everybody who thinks we just sell this add-on a couple of hundred times and call it a day, is very gravely mistaken as well. Maybe this inspires some people to take the time to think about why we actually sell add-ons and themes. It's definitely not cause we're such a money-hungry corporation. But we obviously also can't just dig a drain that we can flush our earnt money down either by providing everything for free (and we provide quite a lot for free or on sale).

On a side notice, it's not directly related to this argument but I want to add it since I'm expressing what I'm observing about this community anyway while writing this post: What I've noticed ever since the switch from XenForo 1 to XenForo 2 is that the XF community has sharply raised their standards and demands, and that doesn't only go for ThemeHouse add-ons, it's the same on my personal free one(s). I'm not really sure where this is coming from, as I'm not observing the same demanding nature the suggestion or bug report section of XenForo itself, but for add-ons, an increasing number of people expect to see everything they suggest ever so quickly to be implemented, free of charge, just for them, no questions asked, added on top of the product they already purchased. And every simple bug to be fixed in an instant, or a bad blood is about to be spilled before you even get a chance to look at the issue. I don't mean to say this goes for everyone around here, the majority is not like that, but it's always the unpleasant experiences like that that leave a lasting impression. It's also the reason why I very sharply reduced the time I'm willing to spend on my Editor Manager. Maybe something to think about for one or two people around here.

As a small edit addition I apologize if this post sounds a bit blaming and emotional on parts, it's not meant to blame anyone directly, just to express that my general experience within this community has very heavily declined in quality over the last year.

 

[imno007]

I've been around here long enough to see that this seems to inevitably happen with all addon devs after a while: too many complaints from the community and not enough thanks, and sooner or later they become disillusioned and resentful. I think you have to have a thick skin to last here for more than a few years. Which is understandable, but as a customer it just makes me increasingly leery of depending too much on addon's. So I guess the takeaway is that in the long run addon's are a losing proposition for all of us...?

 

[sbj]

The entire sales of XenForo keeps (I think) four people employed.

Maybe, maybe not. I think imo XF could afford more than those 4 if I am being honest seeing the popularity of XF. But without numbers it is just speculation. I just think basing your argument on this is just wrong. But it doesn't mean your view is wrong (I will come to it in my next point), I just think basing your view on this doesn't mean much.

75 USD per sold XenForo license. XenForo is 160, so we're slightly below half, which would mean these sales would be able to finance two people. So with all due respect, do you really think we generate revenue from providing add-ons and themes for sale here?

Said above that basing it on XF's revenue doesn't mean much as you don't know how much profit they make. Maybe they could afford 10 people at that price, which then would mean you could afford 5 people?

But I agree with your view in that addons probably don't generate much revenue in your case. But this is because of your own business model. You have this loveship towards Javascript/design that you do these complex GUI changes in your addons which breaks everything else. This causes you so much problems with other addons and causes bugs, that everything you gain goes down the drain. You basically shoot at your own legs from the start.

You raised the price of your flagships to 300$ because it is a net negative to you because of the many problems caused by the approach you have in your addons. So you spend hours trying to fix stuff for each single client and on the long run it hurts you too much. If you developed more clean, more standardized things, you wouldn't have these problems. One can be innovative and clean. Instead of focusing on features, your addons focus on the look, how shiny they are.

For example this addon has AJAX refresh (instant refresh without needing to reload the page). I wonder... how would this addon work out if I had 500 nodes in my installation or 300 prefixes... How about having multiple prefixes addon installed? Have you tested these cases?

And everybody who thinks we just sell this add-on a couple of hundred times and call it a day, is very gravely mistaken as well. Maybe this inspires some people to take the time to think about why we actually sell add-ons and themes. It's definitely not cause we're such a money-hungry corporation. But we obviously also can't just dig a drain that we can flush our earnt money down either by providing everything for free (and we provide quite a lot for free or on sale).

I am not criticizing the prices about your stuff. You can set whatever price you want.
Compared to the size of your team, I feel your stuff is under-developed.
I feel like your addons is just a by-product from one of the jobs you did for your clients.
It feels like one of your enterprise clients needed a solution. You developed a bespoke solution for them. And them since you already developed that for that client, you throw that same thing to the XF market. Now, of course you can do whatever you want. But so can I.
So if you think it is okay for you to offer such simple products for such prices (because like you explained you are a company), then I will treat you like a company and have my expectations according to that.
Those one-man show developers provide much more refined products than the whole big company ThemeHouse.
It is like an indy game studio developing better games than a corporate game studio. Why is that the case? Have you thought about that?

Compare this filter addon with the filter addon of AddonsLab. His addon provides 50 times more features than this one as a one-man show. And his support is excellent aswell.

Of course addons and themes are probably just a decoy for your real work aka custom development. So these are just showcases of your potentials.
But again, seeing how one-man shows are handling things, and seeing how the biggest company handles the things, it leaves me baffled. I think this is a natural reaction.

What I've noticed ever since the switch from XenForo 1 to XenForo 2 is that the XF community has sharply raised their standards and demands, and that doesn't only go for ThemeHouse add-ons, it's the same on my personal free one(s).

I think only 1 free one of yours left. I think the other ones you abandoned or moved over to ThemeHouse.
Anyway, I agree with you but I think this is just half the story.
In XF1 there were tons of free addons. In XF2 almost everything went to paid. And paid addons get treated differently than free ones.
It is just a mirror reaction to the market. So, yes, the standards are raised, but raised due to being everything paid.

I'm not really sure where this is coming from, as I'm not observing the same demanding nature the suggestion or bug report section of XenForo itself, but for add-ons, an increasing number of people expect to see everything they suggest ever so quickly to be implemented, free of charge, just for them, no questions asked, added on top of the product they already purchased.

I get what you want to say and I agree with you partly.

Bug treatment from the XF guys is the best steady thing they have going since the beginning.
Since the beginning they keep releasing bug fixes to the software. This is why many trust in this software. And when there is a bug, it will get resolved soon, it was always like this and it is still like this. And very rarely the bugs are breaking things heavily. So one doesn't need to be demanding, it gets fixed anyway. And in case it is breaking, like the last release, they quickly add a fix like 2.1.5a.

So comparing them to normal addons is not the same thing. Whereas with addons there are many cases where they break things all the time heavily. Funny enough, I reported a bug in your famous editor addon 4 months ago. It breaks heavily the forum (images don't work) but since it is a free addon, I just reported once and keep waiting for the fix. Had to turn it off meanwhile, but it is for free, have to wait. Then finally last week I asked about it again after 4 months. Hope I wasn't too demanding but I thought it was time to ask it again.

About suggestions and XF. Well, that is another story. I try to be supportive here in XF and try to help people as much as I can and don't want to cause dramas. But if it comes to suggestions and XF... Well, that is a story in itself. I think at this point over the years people just gave up asking for suggestions. XF doesn't do suggestions. It took them ~4-5 years to implement the famous widget framework. I don't want to go more deeper in that direction. You can find my rants about this on TAZ. Here, I try to be positive. Maybe, instead of quoting Mike in this thread, I should have done that over on TAZ, so this discussion would have been there where it is probably better suited than here. Sorry, for that. I didn't thought this will cause such a discussion here.