Software Maturity

Shamil

Well-known member
We're getting to that stage where the software is going to become mature enough for public beta, at which point, I assume will be the feature-lock stage.

To what extent though, do you feel that this software is a competitor to others, given its early stage in product lifecycle, and, given that other competing software have had years of experience, 10,000s lines of code etc.?

Obviously, the staff team will need to grow to sustain the produce: support, business development etc.

In 5 years time, how do you envisage XenForo to be?
 
Wow.

At the risk of being pilloried, I'd like to inject some reality.

[devil's advocate mode] vB and IPB are very aware of the potential loss of market share this software poses. If they remain static and change nothing, sure xenForo has a shot at gaining a huge amount of market share very quickly. That is most unlikely to happen. vB is already bleeding, mostly to IPB right now and potentially to xenForo very soon. But, their market share is huge. They can sustain a good bit of loss and still maintain the number one slot. For all that is wrong with their product, they have a lot of money behind them and the resources to protect their position. They are not without the ability to turn things around. They don't need complete and total redemption for their current customer base to hold, most people dislike change. It is quite a leap for most people to change forum software. IPB is fairly innovative and has a great advantage as far as already having a mature product. Make no mistake about it, xenForo is innovative, wonderful software that should do well, but to take business away from the established players is no easy task in any business scenario. I see them creating a three way race in the commercial forum software business which is better for the end user that a two way race. I just can't see them racing to the front that easily. It's gonna be a very competitive race with three strong competitors. Not a runaway. [/devils advocate]
Healthy competition is always welcomed. The lesson here is that the idea of having that one forum software at the top is over. Now we have alot of good options to choose from which by default forces the developers of said products to do better.
 
And thus build richer, more optimised tools - and if the plugin is community supported, then it'll be easier to add more features, and easier to fully optimise.

We're already eyeing up an add on module. The key phrase there is "add on", i.e if the module doesn't fit your community's requirement you don't take it up, rather than being forced to have it "straight out of the box". A heck of a lot of features in the current forum product I use simply don't mean anything to the members and actually put off quite a few from posting. Older members find it way too confronting and younger ones find it easier to facebook. We're treading water currently waiting on Zen's first release, in a sort of revitalised back to the future move to get the members excited again.

End of day, imho, the major forum products have become too complex for their own good and have lost focus of the primary purpose of forums while adding unnecessary bells and whistles. Please note I'm not pointing the finger at any individual software product here. We are going to switch to Zen then wait on the members to ask for features they miss from the former product. If enough people ask, and Zen's documentation is good enough to kick start my middle of the road coding ability, then we'll develop individual widgets (or whatever they are going to be called in Zen circles) as add ons. Should be a rich and diverse third party development circle here as people seem to want to go with zen from differing software backgrounds.

At this stage I'm pretty excited, my fellow Admins are excited, and no doubt the members will want to know what happened to the arcade LOL.
 
Wow.

At the risk of being pilloried, I'd like to inject some reality.
No pillory here! :)
And your point is quite well made. :)

I happen to think that XF is better positioned to take business from IB/vB than IPB is, and I have a sneaking suspicion that XF will do a faaaaaar better job of fostering a 3rd party dev community than IB/vB has/is. If XF can woo a majority of the good 3rd party devs, it will give them a huge advantage when paired with their fundamentally superior platform.

Size alone is no predictor of success in web platforms, the most obvious/relevant case is what happened to Infopop/UBB.

As for the amount of resources and size of development team... There've been many cases of large companies taking over software dev companies and then totally failing, it would be far from uncommon if Jelsoft went the way of Microprose (anyone else remember the powerhouse PC game company that RULED the strategy gaming world?).
 
We're already eyeing up an add on module. The key phrase there is "add on", i.e if the module doesn't fit your community's requirement you don't take it up, rather than being forced to have it "straight out of the box". A heck of a lot of features in the current forum product I use simply don't mean anything to the members and actually put off quite a few from posting. Older members find it way too confronting and younger ones find it easier to facebook. We're treading water currently waiting on Zen's first release, in a sort of revitalised back to the future move to get the members excited again.

End of day, imho, the major forum products have become too complex for their own good and have lost focus of the primary purpose of forums while adding unnecessary bells and whistles. Please note I'm not pointing the finger at any individual software product here. We are going to switch to Zen then wait on the members to ask for features they miss from the former product. If enough people ask, and Zen's documentation is good enough to kick start my middle of the road coding ability, then we'll develop individual widgets (or whatever they are going to be called in Zen circles) as add ons. Should be a rich and diverse third party development circle here as people seem to want to go with zen from differing software backgrounds.

At this stage I'm pretty excited, my fellow Admins are excited, and no doubt the members will want to know what happened to the arcade LOL.

Ok, some nice, valid points there, but what's Zen got to do with XenForo?
 
We're getting to that stage where the software is going to become mature enough for public beta, at which point, I assume will be the feature-lock stage.

To what extent though, do you feel that this software is a competitor to others, given its early stage in product lifecycle, and, given that other competing software have had years of experience, 10,000s lines of code etc.?

Obviously, the staff team will need to grow to sustain the produce: support, business development etc.

In 5 years time, how do you envisage XenForo to be?

I think it is far away from that stage.
And in 5 years, it will be for ahead of it. And the company would have grown.
Sorry, useless discussion in my book, because it will be out when it's out, and how they run their business isn't our choice. It's theirs.
 
End of day, imho, the major forum products have become too complex for their own good and have lost focus of the primary purpose of forums while adding unnecessary bells and whistles. Please note I'm not pointing the finger at any individual software product here. We are going to switch to Zen then wait on the members to ask for features they miss from the former product. If enough people ask, and Zen's documentation is good enough to kick start my middle of the road coding ability, then we'll develop individual widgets (or whatever they are going to be called in Zen circles) as add ons. Should be a rich and diverse third party development circle here as people seem to want to go with zen from differing software backgrounds..
Very well put, and I couldn't agree more. The ACP in vB has gotten so bloated it's really hard to find things that you KNOW are there, we have far more features turned OFF than we have turned on.

I'm guessing that we might see XF go with more of a plugin architecture where most of the bells and whistles are not there, but you can add the individual ones that you want, that would be consistent with the lean and clean philosophy that has been displayed so far. And is a far better paradigm in IMO. :)
 
It is not feature-comparable to vBulletin, but for my purposes, that's not really important at this stage. I know that sounds fanboish, but hear me out...

Tens of thousands of customers bought vBulletin 4 on faith and based on the strength of the name. Even after 8 revisions since beta, there is widespread disappointment. As a result, many people are sitting on vBulletin 4 licenses they are not using. Further, there are doubts that the vBulletin Solutions is building a foundation stable enough to support a software suite. Despite trebling their development staff, software development pace seems to have been stunted.

Looking long term when you put your faith in a product to power your website, you must take a long hard look at the codebase. Is this codebase robust and modular enough to support my site going forward, support addition of new features without ugly hacks, and also integrate with third party solutions I might want to add? Thus far, the "new codebase" of vBulletin Forum and vBulletin CMS are going the opposite direction. A closed system that is increasingly proprietary.

In vBulletin, we've seen the addition of a hard-wired StyleVar system that is antithetical to the purpose of Cascading Style Sheets. We've seen numerous code regressions and community features being removed because they are inconvenient to the developers to continue to support. We've also seen close analysis of this "new codebase" for the CMS which has been touted as the new foundation for vBulletin's future. When comparing new and old code side-by-side, the new code should be a slam dunk, but instead I'm hearing a lot of deep concern that the CMS codebase is not robust enough to even dream of putting a forum on top of it.

So you have two camps:
  • People who bought licenses for vB4 beta software that is looking like a dead end.
  • People like me with vB3.x licenses for stable software that is undoubtedly a dead end.
Do we jump on IPB, which is a different philosophy, a bit of a more closed system, and very restrictive of negative criticism? Or do we go back to basics -- a handful of software developers with a love for elegant code?

I hate to say it, but it's time to write off those vB4 licenses and chalk it up to lessons learned. I did everything I could to warn people that this was not your father's vBulletin, and to look closely at what was being offered before going in blind, but it happened anyway. For 9 years, vBulletin did a good job of building brand identity. Nobody wanted to believe that it could be destroyed in 3 months. I think long-term, the vB4 gamble is not going to pay off. I know that having a "vision" doesn't put the butts in the seats, but I grew to love vBulletin because when I read developer posts, I immediately sensed "This is someone who is focusing on core values". Even if I didn't get all the features I wanted, and hey I threw up a fuss on a few obvious fixes, overall, the software seemed in good hands.

So let's look forward to what software will be powering our communities 18 months ~ 2 years from now. I know forum admins like to plan in advance. I've read their posts on vB.com asking for a roadmap for the last year, and asking for more information to help them plan site migrations and revamps.

So I'm not looking at XenForo now. I'm looking at what XenForo will be in 12 months. Will it be ready to take over the responsibility of my communities? Based on the quality and speed of the forums here, I have no doubts. I have faith that the coding and templates will be of a quality comparable to what we have received during the prime years of vBulletin development.

I am hoping that within 6 months of XenForo's release, there will be dozens of styles and dozens of plugins which rival vBulletin.
 
I did everything I could to warn people not to buy on faith, but it happened anyway.
...
I have no doubts. I have faith that the coding and templates will be of a quality comparable to what we have received during the prime years of vBulletin development.
Just pointing out some irony here. :D

Nevertheless, I also have faith that XenForo will continue to be developed into a top-notch product, and I will probably buy on that faith. :)
 
Feldon said:
I did everything I could to warn people not to buy on faith, but it happened anyway.
...
I have no doubts. I have faith that the coding and templates will be of a quality comparable to what we have received during the prime years of vBulletin development.
Just pointing out some irony here. :D

Nevertheless, I also have faith that XenForo will continue to be developed into a top-notch product, and I will probably buy on that faith. :)
Actually, I was going for irony. ;)

I felt that faith in vBulletin in 2010 was on shaky ground.

And I feel that faith in XenForo, at least in the interim, is well-placed.
 

Actually I didn't, we're (as in at another site debating taking the product up) referring to the product as Zen due to XF conflicting with a movie term and people being somewhat confused. Xen sounded like some chinese dude ergo we just started calling it simply Zen.*

*Will try and remember to call it Xen here.
 
Actually I didn't, we're (as in at another site debating taking the product up) referring to the product as Zen due to XF conflicting with a movie term and people being somewhat confused. Xen sounded like some chinese dude ergo we just started calling it simply Zen.

At least you're not calling it Zend.
 
In 5 years time, how do you envisage XenForo to be?
Personally I think it depends on the business model they choose.

For instance if they recognize that many admins are seeking solutions to their problems, as opposed to learning all about the nuances of the software, which by definition will be continually changing.

One idea could be some type of 'best answer' system with a small monetary compensation for the best answer. That could be a really simple way to encourage people to log into xf.com and feel better about spending their time here. The amount of knowledge on this forum by its members at this time is staggering.

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