Public's perception about forums and what we can learn from IMDb's boards

[sbj]

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This is about IMDB's forums where they talk about how they miss it since they closed it years ago. This thread was created hours ago.

I fished out for you those messages relevant for us to make a point.

As you see, this is how the population sees us, this is their perception:

If you think "but this is just 1 thread, it is not representative", well you can find similar threads like every week on there saying the same thing, for example 1 from 3 months ago:

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And the 2nd highest comment on there is:

You can read the replies to it if you want, they all say the same thing.

and so on...

---

What we can learn from these discussions over there?

How do we make forums popular again? I think we need a centralisation of some sorts but this is just utopia with how slow we progress. Not gonna immerge in that.

If we can't make forums popular again, maybe we can make them great again? So at least if somehow people land on our sites, we can at least offer an excellent user experience so they visit again.

If you analyze those discussions over on reddit, you can clearly understand what forums need to do in order to be great. If you read the IMDb boards situation everybody is talking about there, then you get the gist of what was great about it.

No, they don't talk about how great the moderation was, how awesome the administrating tools were, how shiny username colors were, no.

The quintessence is that every movie has had its dedicated own section and how great it was that after years people still got a reply and could see old threads.

But how did they land on there in first place? They visited first IMDb itself (their words) which is a database/wiki for movies. So each wiki page of a movie had a discussion place attached to it.

Maybe in over 100 posts here or on TAZ I explained what forums need to do in order to be great. This is the magic trick. A forum should be the by-product of the core content. Just like how the message boards were the by-product of IMDbs main wiki pages.

So, we have the message boards unlike IMDb, but we don't have what IMDb has: a database/wiki/main content delivery system.

XF offers a nice product. We all can create a message board immediately with the moderating tools, the administrating tools, but we lack massively in tools to create content. So, what we need are tools for content creation, delivery, crawling, uploading etc. (article system, wiki system, filtering, parser, php scripts, calculations, mass uploading etc.) and the discussions should be attached to that.

Unless you fall under the "service forums" category then your content is already created for you by a manufacturer like Ford, Apple, LG etc. But even then you benefit from having a database of some sorts as curating your own information is always beneficial.

Do you agree with my assessment (why not) or what would you add to it? What is your take based on that I linked above?

Thanks.

 

[Lee]

What is wrong with the tools provided by @Bob and AMS?

 

[sbj]

What is wrong with the tools provided by @Bob and AMS?

The only wrong thing about that is that Bob is not working for XF?

I am not sure how you come to conclusion to connect this thread with a 3rd-party developer, even though if it is the great Bob we are talking about here.

Please, let's shift the focus on what the main product offers instead of adding 3rd-party stuff into the discussion. Otherwise there is no point to discuss anything, since you will say "there is an addon for that, you can hire a developer for that, etc.".
Like I quoted so many people talking about how they see the forum world and you talk about 1 specific addon (which I own a license of). Huh, what? This is not the direction I imagined I would have here, but ok. I hope I answered your question.

 

[Lee]

My point is that XenForo is a discussion platform, not an article management system.

You are buying apples and expecting oranges.

XenForo is a forum. Expecting article publishing capabilities from a forum seems a little odd to me.

People wouldn’t install Wordpress and expect a full XenForo style forum as default, so what Is the difference in expecting article management tools similar to Wordpress?

Similarly, with some html knowledge plenty can be achieved using the built in article forum type and custom fields.

I am not against the idea, but I think article delivery is the responsibility of us as webmasters not XenForo, a forum developer.

 

[Taylor J]

My point is that XenForo is a discussion platform, not an article management system.

You are buying apples and expecting oranges.

Then what was the point of having first party addons as in a Gallery and Resources?

 

[sbj]

Ahh, now I see the angle you take @Lee .

I am not buying apples and expect oranges.

I bought apples expecting apples. But I think it is not good enough anymore to be just "apples". I think the apples should evolve into oranges, we are not in 2005 anymore.

It is like complaining that a phone should just be there to call people. If we didn't evolve, you could not surf XF via your phone. So a phone is not just a phone anymore, it is a computer, a camera, a walkman, a navigator, etc. so it evolved from being an "apple" to an "orange".

We should not progress anymore or what?

 

[Alan_SP]

If I don't misunderstand messages you put here for us, it looks like people that complain, they miss forums as forums, not forums as ... Reddit, Twitter, Facebook.

But, those same people left forums for ... Reddit, Twitter, Facebook. And, obviously, we have a case when someone doesn't know what he actually wants.

We can't solve it. They have to realize what they want: Forums, or Reddits, Twitters, Facebooks, whatever.

Or, is it possible to have both?

 

[Taylor J]

From my experience (seen and personal) it's usually their forum being used being taken down or just going away. A good example is Riot Games taking down their boards in favor of using the r/LeagueOfLegends sub reddit.

 

[Paul B]

Over the years I've read a lot of words but seen no action.

If you think you have the answer, do something about it.

Set up a PleaseFleeceMe or whatever the current favourite is, get some seed money and VC and create a social media killer.

MAKE FORUMS GREAT AGAIN!

 

[sbj]

But, those same people left forums for ... Reddit, Twitter, Facebook. And, obviously, we have a case when someone doesn't know what he actually wants.

Well that is exactly the point I am trying to make.

As you correctly observed, they want the old forums but on the other hand they are the ones leaving old forums.

Now the question is, if they want the old forums, why aren't they going back or what makes them stay on reddit, twitter?

If we can find an answer to that, then bingo, you found out what makes reddit etc. better and what we should do as well.

The easy answer to this question is and which is also indirectly mentioned over on those threads are the popularity of these platforms. It means it is more convenient to be in a ****ty place where also other 1 million users are, instead of being in a good place but with only handful of people. So quantity is over quality. They endure the ****ty experience for the comfort of having masses of people there which means your questions get answered immediately, you have thousands of people to talk to, you have dozens of things to read, to learn, to spend time with, etc.

So if we could make forum platforms popular again, like being a well established franchise, then we have a chance. I talked briefly about it saying that we need a centralisation for forums in order to be popular again. But this is a huge task and not realistically probable since the development/management for this kind of level would be above of what we can expect from a small team.

And I argue if we can't make the forum platform itself popular again, then at least we should make the quality above their platforms. It means we will not get the traffic of social media but the traffic we get should get something social media can't offer. And I explained by using the IMDb example in which direction we should go to.

 

[sbj]

Over the years I've read a lot of words but seen no action.

If you think you have the answer, do something about it.

Set up a PleaseFleeceMe or whatever the current favourite is, get some seed money and VC and create a social media killer.

If you think that a valley would make a great place for a dam (for generating electricity) because you know the area quite well, then it doesn't mean you have the knowledge to build a dam or have the money to make others build it for you.

I am not sure what a simple forum owner can do about it. Clearly we don't have the money, we are not rich. Clearly nobody on PleaseFleeceMe (lol) will take a random admin serious to invest in such a plan. Clearly, we lack the expertise in creating it.

So what we can do is to have the attention of those who can make the difference, the developers of the platform. Give them ideas, talk about it, talk with them, exchange point of views. But our developers are I guess too ashamed or busy or whatever to talk with us. Fine, nothing personal, but disappointing since I miss the activity of our devs. I miss the days when they talked to us on a frequent basis. But that is another topic.

It is also not about being a social media killer. As I tried to argue that it is not realistic to expect such a thing. We will never get the traffic of social media giants, not likely. On the other hand I think forum software companies make 0 campaigns, have 0 efforts and have 0 strategies about at least trying to be more popular. There could be done something about it to be more known in general. But my point is not about that either.

My point is if we can't win on their turf with their rules, then at least let us win it on our turfs on our terms. And for that I tried to use the IMDb example. Clearly everyone can read that those people on reddit miss the old IMDb boards.
Well good news for us, XF is capable of creating a message board with ease. That is already a given with this software. But what made those people use the IMDb boards where IMDb itself. So, they first used the main core site of IMDb in order to reach the message boards. So the main site acts as the main content and the message boards where the end-station so to speak.
If we can create a similar experience, then voila, we have a working method of being useful to people. It works, it worked as demonstrated with IMDb. So mimicking the same behaviour is what I propose.

This is basically my answer to "what do you expect XF to do for a new release?" Anytime we talk about 2.3 or future versions, someone comes and asks like what specifically we want to see. I am being specific right now with a real example.

 

[Paul B]

More words repeating the same things you've been saying for years.
Honestly I stopped reading your posts a long time ago.

If you put as much time and energy into actually doing something, you may have been in a better place now.

If you believe the current offerings are lacking, do something about it.

There's always the next big thing.
It could be you.

 

[sbj]

Ouch, that hurts. I can understand you disagreeing with me and repeating the same things might get on your nerves, too. (Maybe I am repeating for so long because not much is happening for so long and I have no way of knowing if we get through or not?) I apologize for that. But I always respected you and never talked in a negative way about you and will keep that of course. But knowing that someone you respect a lot doesn't respect you back is hurtful. Yeah, maybe I should have not put as much time and energy into here.

I always thought I was doing something about it by being courageous enough to talk about it openly to be a voice for people. Also by trying to help out in the community so you guys have less work to do and so we have a strong community to support you guys. But being seen as a nuisance is hurtful, but of course you don't have to like me. Also knowing that you are kind of our groom to us as Turkish people, I thought I should always have your back and will keep doing that, no matter what. To look on the bright side of life, at least you communicate with us.

Hmm, well, I don't think I am the next big thing unfortunately. I wish I could be a developer, so instead of writing I could demonstrate my thoughts with addons. Maybe in another life. I am sorry.

 

[Paul B]

You have taken my comments the wrong way.

I am encouraging you to do something you clearly passionately believe in.

You don't need to be a developer or have the skill to create a killer app, just drive and money.

The drive comes from you, the money comes from others who believe in your vision.

XF is never going to be what you want it to be.

 

[Goodfella]

Over the years I've read a lot of words but seen no action.

2.3 has been in active development for quite some time and we expect to start running HYS threads in the coming weeks.

You mean something like this?

If you think you have the answer, do something about it.

I don’t think a single individual has the “answer”. Considering this is a community, members are attempting to contribute positive input to help enhance and drive the software forward.
It seems as though the XF team does not value this input hence the 10 year old suggestions sitting stale without any input from the actual developers. If you guys are not interested in the suggestion then mark them as such so other devs can pick them up and not worry about the immediate risk of being blown out the water.

Ever ask yourself why so many third party developers have left over the past few years? One good example is Audentio/ThemeHouse. If I recall correctly they literally left because they invested tons of resources into something that was simultaneously being developed by XF.
It’s sad that 50% of the XF2 addons are managed by 3 developers. They leave and there goes the third party plugin section…

 

[Davyc]

The problem lies not in the software, it lies in people and people are fickle. They tend to gravitate to where their friends go, wherever that may be. They are obviously bemoaning the fact that they miss old school forums, but they're still on the platform they're moaning about their loss. It's not really something we can do anything about other than be there for them when they wake up and smell the coffee and understand that the solution is in their own hands and go look for a forum that fulfils their needs. You used IMDB as an example, I have a movie site that is growing in content and has over 12,000 pages views since I put up the new home page (the site was up and running about a year before that change), but does anyone join and talk about the movies they love? No! That's not a failing of the software, it's not a failing on my part as I've given it my all (and still do). It's there if they want to use it, but if they're not prepared to use it, nothing I do will make them move from the platforms they appear to intensely despise.

BTW I post a movie of the day, every single day, on Twitter and get good traction on there from my Tweets, they obviously come to the site to read about the movie, watch the trailers, find out about the cast and crew, but do they join? No! It's their choice to stay on Twitter because that's where all their followers are.

It's not a software thing, no matter how many addons you add, or how much great content you feed into your site, it's a people thing and the only thing that will change people, is people; it's their choice, they deserted forums a long time ago for what they thought was better and now they're beginning to understand the mistake they made, but they do little or nothing about it other than moan.

All we can do is be there and wait for them to realise that we're still out there and they can come back whenever they choose, or not if that's what they decide. Just my take on a situation that has been developing for a long, long time.

A friend once corrected me when I use that old adage of 'The grass is always greener on the other side', he replied ' No! The grass is always greenest where you water it'.

 

[Suzanne O]

I prefer a forum over social media platforms. People tend to become too nasty on them.
was on instagram earlier and noticed that i was being abused on there by some people who had know idea that i was being positive.

It was about a lady who's newborn son was put into childcare and was scratched by some other toddler.

it then turned into a slanging match.

The same sort of stuff that gets posted on social media.

 

[Wing]

Imagine Reddit changing its own software to XenForo. So essentially a forum with the Reddit logo at the top. And with a custom/enhanced “what’s new” page for a more live dynamic stream of posts. Would it be popular these days?

I think it would be. In fact I think at this point people would prefer XenForo Reddit.

 

[Lee]

Imagine Reddit changing its own software to XenForo. So essentially a forum with the Reddit logo at the top. And with a custom/enhanced “what’s new” page for a more live dynamic stream of posts. Would it be popular these days?

I think it would be. In fact I think at this point people would prefer XenForo Reddit.

This.

I think the what's new / content discovery is where we are lagging right now.

I am not against @sbj suggestion of article publication tools, but most of what is suggested is already in place with various addons / other tools. Sure, it would be nice to have a first party addon, but it isn't the end of the world.

We all have things that we would prefer the software to have, none of which are "wrong" suggestions.

 

[Kleazy]

I like this thread and thank you for starting it. You asked for feedback.

I don't comprehend or miss-understand your "collectivism" undertone. Can you elaborate?

Who is this "we" group? Why does the group "we" have to do anything at all? See I believe in merit/value driven free markets. If one provides a value that the audience actually cares for then that operator gains market shares, gains pageviews or engagement or whatever they are after.

What does the audience actually want?
I think the answer is speed/simplicity of UI and a human community that follows the same principles a IRL peer engagement requires to flourish. What we do in my forum is treat the audience a little bit like children; with the upmost respect, not belittle them like they are infants. How does a loving family parents engage with each other. Seen, Safe, Secure, Sooting Yes...it may sound Kumbaja lets all hug the tree crazy (maybe?) but it worked in my community.

The EFF link you posted elsewhere also goes into that a little bit.

How do we make forums popular again? I think we need a centralisation of some sorts but this is just utopia with how slow we progress. Not gonna immerge in that.

Centralization in my opinion is never a good idea ever. It monopolizes authority/"leadership" and restricts free flow of new ideas and experiments. Yes It might be saver for the group at large however people have different ideas and via competition a new leader shall emerge. Then that leaders strength is at the same moment its weakness hence the competition pushes for progress. Yet a better idea.

And yes I know its a very simplistic worldview. Maybe naive or utopian. I want to see many unique forums not under one central control, ownership or guidance. I like winners AND losers.

Good thread. Will track it.