Piracy - The Battle

[cclaerhout]

It is to the suggestion that people vet or blacklist other people in secret and exchange information on people in secret. It raises ethical and even legal concerns. Because it is in secret it is open to abuse and mistakes. This is where it gets muddy, when it goes wrong. I want to stop piracy as much as you do, but the process has to be sound and robust, and preferably, transparent.

It can't be. Everybody can make mistakes. But a public mistakes has not the same impact than a private one.

And sometimes it just doubts and a quick check must be done. There are not any big secrets... really. This is actually very basic. You have a business. Someone is coming to see you... you've got doubts, you call a friend in the same business as you to perform a fast check. It's basic and doesn't need to be public at all.

 

[EQnoble]

As it is in the interest of designers and developers to sell more product, it is extremely unlikely that someone would be listed on any so called black list unless there was a good reason for it.

Even then it would be up to the individual designer or developer to choose if he or she is going to use that information or not.

I would look at each instance on a case by case basis.

So if say developer X posted that user A had a chargeback due to a fraudulent credit card, that would be a definite NO... if Developer X posted that he and user A had a dispute, I would want to know more from User A.

that could all be done in public

 

[Sheldon]

Kim, if you need access, I have a list started.

 

[cclaerhout]

Remember, when we talk about "legality" and "ethical"

I read this and as I told you, I don't see any ethical problems here. Again XenForo doesn't give any personal datas on his customers.

 

[Kim]

that could all be done in public

No, it couldn't because Xenforo do not wish to have that information on public display, they may well not want it in private also, I don't know, so far we have had no feedback one way or the other.

Perhaps this needs to be a third party site.

 

[Sheldon]

Same for you cclaerhout Cédric.

I know we had our issues, but if you would like access, just let me know. I'd rather see the illegal distribution of add-ons slowed to a crawl.

 

[Kim]

Such lists of known fraudsters, and defaulters etc are very standard business practice.

Anyone who has ever borrowed money, or who has applied for a credit card knows this. What do you think your "Credit Rating" is.

There is a lot of bluff and fluster going on about nothing in here

 

[akia]

As it is in the interest of designers and developers to sell more product, it is extremely unlikely that someone would be listed on any so called black list unless there was a good reason for it.

Are you sure about that? I've got a feeling I've just been put on stewart1champ's list because I don't agree with his view and because of that he thinks I'm a pirate.

 

[Sheldon]

Are you sure about that? I've got a feeling I've been put on stewart1champ's list because I don't agree with his view and because of that he thinks I'm a pirate.

Your feeling is incorrect. I do my research first.

Guilty conscience?

 

[Russ]

I like what these guys did:

http://blog.whmcs.com/news.php?t=66802 referencing :

http://shamelesshosts.com/tag/nulled-whmcs/

shamelessoforums anyone!

 

[Forsaken]

And thats my point, its a two way street and the same thing should be done by developers. If a member rips them off they should try to resolve it in private then in not go public with it.

and just to prove a point that I'm not a pirate as had been implied heres a screenshot of my cp showing the only 3 add ons I use.

In cases other than pirates and chargebacks, thats definitely how it should be done. However with pirates and chargebacks there isn't much that can be done to protect yourself and with digital goods you're pretty much screwed as they already have the whole product.

In an issue of a falling out of services rendered or an issue with a product that is something that should be dealt with in private and should only escalate to get mediation to solve the conflict. In most cases this doesn't happen, but in a perfect world thats how it should.

Also I've accused no one of being a pirate, and if you look through my past posts on anything relating to piracy I do not like bashing people for no reason.

Just to be clear on this point, my objection is not about showing whether I am a licence holder or not. I would support our profiles here showing this to any visitor because it's all open and transparent.

Neither is it about anyone expressing an opinion about another person, or stating if someone was ripped off and by whom providing those are facts and it's not defamation or libel.

Nor is it about any seller of an add-on, or any developer, asking me for more information if I make a purchase to prove I am legit.

It is to the suggestion that people vet or blacklist other people in secret and exchange information on people in secret. It raises ethical and even legal concerns. Because it is in secret it is open to abuse and mistakes. This is where it gets muddy, when it goes wrong. I want to stop piracy as much as you do, but the process has to be sound and robust, and preferably, transparent.

Remember, when we talk about "legality" and "ethical" we are not using these terms to protect the PIRATES we are using them to protect the public and consumers and any innocent party that might get embroiled in the process of trying to stop piracy. I think some of you are misunderstanding the fact we are on the same side and getting defensive as a result

This would not work in a transparent manner as it would only cause unneeded drama. More often than not the reports would be about pirates who are using stolen identities to make purchases (which is my experience with it). Username, paypal email, name on paypal and vague location (Vietnam, Germany, Sweden etc) would be most of the information that would be provided; all of which is obtainable through Google in most cases, or when they try to make a purchase.

In regards to falling out of services rendered that is a slippery slope though I would trust that people would first try to solve the issue in private.

Making it public is more of an ethical issue than keeping it private, so I really don't see the logic in people wanting this to be kept public. In the case of a report and action being needed by a staff member here, chances are you would be contacted for your side of the story.

I like what these guys did:

http://blog.whmcs.com/news.php?t=66802 referencing :

http://shamelesshosts.com/tag/nulled-whmcs/

shamelessoforums anyone!

Public shaming is not a professional action at all, and WHMCS got a lot of flak for their support of that site at the time if I remember correctly.

 

[Kim]

Are you sure about that? I've got a feeling I've just been put on stewart1champ's list because I don't agree with his view and because of that he thinks I'm a pirate.

That is not correct.

As designers and developers WANT to sell you something, you would have to be a proven and provable pirate to make a list like that. It would not be in any of our professional interests to list people for petty reasons, or personal dislike etc.

WE are not children here, but I hope business people.

 

[akia]

Your feeling is incorrect. I do my research first.

Guilty conscience?

How do I know you do your research first though. theres no right of reply with such list.

If you'd done your research you wouldn't be implying I've got a guilty conscience.

 

[EQnoble]

It can't be. Everybody can make mistakes. But a public mistakes has not the same impact than a private one.

And sometimes it just doubts and a quick check must be done. There are not any big secrets... really. This is actually very basic. You have a business. Someone is coming to see you... you've got doubts, you call a friend in the same business as you to perform a fast check. It's basic and doesn't need to be public at all.

I beg the differ....

If I was blacklisted say two years ago and had 10000 to spend on getting dev done for custom addons...but just couldn't find anyone willing to take a job from me...I would just think that no one was interested...and yeah there is no public fallout from that....but in the end a potentially good customer wouldn't get what he needed because of a problem that he didn't even know about. For the person needing those things....the impact was greater because of the private nature of the blacklisting.

Fast forward to now in real life....

This will be subjective and it will get abused and has no place here. It should be at a separate site for those who wish to participate in this exercise if people so choose to do that.

That is all.

Your feeling is incorrect. I do my research first.

Guilty conscience?

Circular logic arguments are just one of the reasons why people who are opposed to this are.

I dont want it...does that mean I have a guilty conscience?

 

[akia]

Such lists of known fraudsters, and defaulters etc are very standard business practice.

Anyone who has ever borrowed money, or who has applied for a credit card knows this. What do you think your "Credit Rating" is.

There is a lot of bluff and fluster going on about nothing in here

But at least with a credit rating you have a right to see whats on your file and have it corrected if an error has been made.

 

[cclaerhout]

Same for you cclaerhout Cédric.

I know we had our issues, but if you would like access, just let me know. I'd rather see the illegal distribution of add-ons slowed to a crawl.

You reminds me such a missionary trying to make be believe I prefer XenForo atheism to see where things are going on. That's not a no, that's just a "in stand-by" ^^

​

 

[Kim]

But at lease with a credit rating you have a right to see whats on your file and have it corrected if an error has been made.

I dunno how it works there, but here there is no such right. You can purchase a copy of your Credit Rating, after proving who you are, then if there is a "mistake" you have to take it up with the listing company, and then even if they have made a mistake, they are not obligated to remove the listing for X years. Most will, but they are not required too. I know many examples of this happening.

Regardless however, there will not be mistakes, only what is disputable conflicts... those I can see might be an issue, but as I said, it would come down to the new resource provider you had applied to, using some common sense.

I really think you are arguing over nothing here.

The vast majority of the reports would be something like this ....

User: skdidw9-00
Reason: Stolen Paypal account used, $29 chargeback on [date]
Email:
IP:

That would be the extent of it.

Any listings of DISPUTES that resulted in a chargeback, might have to be more regulated, this is something we would have to consider more fully.


If it doesn't happen here, it WILL happen somewhere else, rest assured

 

[cclaerhout]

I beg the differ....

I didn't understand sorry. May be I missing information or the post wasn't directly addressing to me

 

[akia]

If it doesn't happen here, it WILL happen somewhere else, rest assured

So be it, my problem is that it should happen on here.

 

[EQnoble]

I didn't understand sorry. May be I missing information or the post wasn't directly addressing to me

I was explaining a situation where an innocent person who has done no wrong can be effected....and in this case the only people it serves is the devs.