Not to go off-topic, but this is the off-topic area (dependence on 3rd party to do basic stuff)

[TPerry]

Has anyone else noticed the ridiculous prices some 3rd party add-on developers are charging... and in many cases for aspects that SHOULD be included in the base forum script currently.

It simply proves my outlook on society now..... it's ALL about "show us the money" than the "I want to help out" attitude has been LONG kicked to the curb.

I put a LOT of this directly back on the XenForo developers... they tend to try to avoid extending the script as much as possible.. being dependent upon outside sources to do such. But honestly.. there reaches a point that their license holders simply can't continue to support that position of "stupidity" to pay a LOT of fees to 3rd party developers for what really should be present in the core. And no, I'm not talking about "major" things.. stuff as simple as extending the ES add-on is a classic case...to get it to work well, you have to pay almost $50 to an outside developer.

And no... if you check my profile out.. I'm not a "new user" to XenForo.. .been using it (and usually happily) for over a decade.... but the developers have seemed to go comatose at the wheel lately.

 

[JamesBrown]

it's ALL about "show us the money"


but the developers have seemed to go comatose at the wheel lately.

I have the Xenforo roadmap, surprised you haven't, only cost me $50

 

[TPerry]

I have the Xenforo roadmap, surprised you haven't, only cost me $50

Last time I checked, it was $500K and guarantee to your first born to access it.
The simple fact is.. there are many simple needs that could be addressed directly within the script by the developers... but they make a conscious decision to not do so.

 

[Suzanne O]

learn to save a bit.

Seriously...

 

[TPerry]

learn to save a bit.

Seriously...

Sorry.. my niche is fairly expensive (when you consider around $5K for a decent mount and similar for a good scope) and trying to provide new content using varieties of them gets rather expensive, not to mention accumulating hardware to use for a local club out of my pocket... I cant afford to pay to kow-tow to the "greed" of developers whenever I can avoid it.

The fact remains... many 3rd party paid functions should currently be rolled into XF.. many of them already are by their competitors.

 

[Arantor]

Much as Tracy and I butt heads on occasion, I think he’s right on this one.

 

[Max Taxable]

it's ALL about "show us the money" than the "I want to help out" attitude has been LONG kicked to the curb.

OzzModz... We provide 570 products, 500 of them free. Prices low low low on the rest. Community service is our entire existence and always was. No curb kicks here.

 

[TPerry]

OzzModz... We provide 570 products, 500 of them free. Prices low low low on the rest. Community service is our entire existence and always was. No curb kicks here.

The issue is... many of those "functions" of their free (not to even get into the paid ) add-ons should be included in the core XF product.
Once more (sound like a broken record).. XF has a HIGH dependency on 3rd parties to provide what should be core functions.

 

[Max Taxable]

The issue is... may of those "functions" of their free (not to even get into the paid ) add-ons should be included in the core XF product.

I'm not arguing that, just giving other readers some great info in the guise of a reply to your statement about 3rd party providers. I know you're not talking about us. Just took the opportunity for some horn tootin'.

 

[mjda]

For me, using 3rd party add-ons has less to do with the cost and much more to do with the availability. I don't install 3rd party add-ons because too many times throughout the years I've ended up having to move on from a feature because I can't get the add-on updated for one reason or another. What if that add-on developer suddenly quits, or chooses not to update that particular add-on? What if they delay updating it for quite some time? I like my sites to be running on the latest version of XF as possible, mainly for the bug fixes. That can't happen if I'm stuck waiting on an 3rd party developer to update an add-on that the new XF version breaks.

For features that I consider to be fundamental to my community, of course I'd much rather have those in the core. Who wouldn't? However, I also realize that just because it's something that's fundamental to my community doesn't mean it is to everyone's and that's something that the XF devs have to weigh. I happen to think they do a fairly good job of not including a lot of unnecessary stuff, which I'm sure some would argue, but when I look at the suggestion forum I believe there are also a lot of things that are necessary that they aren't including. For what reason, we may never know...

So, for now I simply choose to not use add-ons for features that aren't in the core or I break down and write the add-on for it myself, which also isn't ideal.

 

[Xon]

If you want all the features that various paid add-on developers have developed over the years in stock XenForo, this would probably require a fairly dramatic increase in the base cost for XenForo.

 

[PaulB]

It would be helpful to have a specific list of features you expect in the XF core that are currently missing.

 

[CedricV]

It would be helpful to have a specific list of features you expect in the XF core that are currently missing.

He doesn't have a specific list, it's about the way things work here. There are some absolutely brilliant add ons by 3rd party providers, many worth the pennies they ask. But take away the 3rd party add ons, what's left ? A base product that doesn't evolve your community. A base product that is outdated. A base product that doesn't provide anything innovative.

Don't get me wrong, I love XenForo, but if it wasn't for the script wizards here, I wouldn't have gone for XenForo.
Good thing XF is relatively cheap. I don't want to count all add ons and licenses I purchased or I'll end up going to IPS.

 

[mjda]

If you want all the features that various paid add-on developers have developed over the years in stock XenForo, this would probably require a fairly dramatic increase in the base cost for XenForo.

Yeah, I'd say that would be expected. For the larger, more in-depth features, I'd assume they would be released as official add-ons so the folks who want them pay and the ones who don't want them don't pay.

It would be helpful to have a specific list of features you expect in the XF core that are currently missing.

I don't have a list, but outside of a handful that I, personally, wouldn't find useful, I'd say the best place to start would be in the suggestion forum, specifically ordered by popularity (https://xenforo.com/community/forums/xenforo-suggestions.18/?order=vote_score). A lot of those are over 10 years old and are still needed/wanted and a few even still being discussed. I understand the point of the forum might not necessarily be to implement every suggestion that gets suggested. Heck, maybe there are no intentions on ever implementing any of those suggestions. However, if that forum is going to exist, I think the general expectation would be that members make suggestions, members vote on suggestions, and XF implements the most popular ones. If that's not the case, fine, but maybe someone should start moving those to "Closed suggestions" and marking them as "Not planned". That would be astronomically better than just letting them sit there for 10+ years.

 

[Suzanne O]

It all comes down to whether or not you want to use XF or some other software.
Also if you complain too much about not seeing lists it's because you fail to read the threads that @Chris D posts up in the announcements board.
it's also in the link you download. Click on it first to read what's inside it.

 

[mjda]

It all comes down to whether or not you want to use XF or some other software.
Also if you complain too much about not seeing lists it's because you fail to read the threads that @Chris D posts up in the announcements board.
it's also in the link you download. Click on it first to read what's inside it.

I think the fact that we're all still here makes it pretty clear we want to use XF. Otherwise, we'd be busy converting our forums and/or commenting on some competitor's support forums. XF is still the best option for me and my site, by a long shot. There's nothing wrong with a little constructive criticism, though.

As for the lists, we're talking about features folks want to see in the core...not ones that are already in the core. Such a list, outside of the suggestion forum which has been mentioned, doesn't exist from @Chris D, or anyone else on the XF dev team...at least not one that's publicly accessible.

 

[PaulB]

I don't have a list, but outside of a handful that I, personally, wouldn't find useful, I'd say the best place to start would be in the suggestion forum, specifically ordered by popularity (https://xenforo.com/community/forums/xenforo-suggestions.18/?order=vote_score). A lot of those are over 10 years old and are still needed/wanted and a few even still being discussed.

I would be opposed to many of those suggestions being implemented in core XF, which is a good sign they're better suited for add-ons. Remember, suggestions can only be upvoted, not downvoted; a high upvote count doesn't actually indicate consensus.

Going down the list:

1. Single Sign On (Connect XF with XF, WordPress, etc) - Yes please, but make sure add-ons can integrate with and extend it.
2. Forums in Read Only mode, when closed - This can be achieved already with permissions; I'd rather see read-only SQL mode so database server failover can be zero-downtime.
3. Ignore / Filter System - You can't do that with SQL without killing performance for large forums. They'd need to include XFES in the core, completely rewrite the search and finder system, and significantly change how they interact with databases. If there's one feature I'd like to see in XF3, it's this--but it pretty much requires a complete rewrite of XF. I'm sure there are plenty of add-ons out there that do it inefficiently or incompletely, but they wouldn't be viable on a large, active forum.
4. Implement AMP Project framework - I'm strongly opposed to AMP for ethical reasons, and I'm not alone. I'd rather they not waste resources on this.
5. Scheduled Thread / Post - That's pretty niche. If you really want to do that, it's a few dozen lines of code.
6. Official XenForo Commerce Addon: Donations, Shop, Billing, Monetizing, Ads, Subs, affiliate, etc - Cool idea, but it's not suggesting changes to the core.
7. Send an alert and/or email on a member's birthday - As a forum user: please don't do that. I will mark your emails as spam.
8. Allow nested replies in Q&A Threads - Same issues as #3
9. Tell users why they do not have permission to access a page. - That would likely result in an information disclosure vulnerability.
10. Missing: Social Groups + Group-forums - Seems like a good idea to include in core XF.
11. a dark theme option - If I recall correctly, aren't they planning on implementing this soon? Don't quote me on that, though.
12. Google WebP Support - The whole attachment system is due for an overhaul--and not just to add WebP. To do it properly, though, they'd probably have to drop support for shared hosting, which isn't going to happen.
13. PayPal NVP API - Yup, billing needs an overhaul.

 

[mjda]

I would be opposed to many of those suggestions being implemented in core XF, which is a good sign they're better suited for add-ons. Remember, suggestions can only be upvoted, not downvoted; a high upvote count doesn't actually indicate consensus.

Going down the list:

1. Single Sign On (Connect XF with XF, WordPress, etc) - Yes please, but make sure add-ons can integrate with and extend it.
2. Forums in Read Only mode, when closed - This can be achieved already with permissions; I'd rather see read-only SQL mode so database server failover can be zero-downtime.
3. Ignore / Filter System - You can't do that with SQL without killing performance for large forums. They'd need to include XFES in the core, completely rewrite the search and finder system, and significantly change how they interact with databases. If there's one feature I'd like to see in XF3, it's this--but it pretty much requires a complete rewrite of XF. I'm sure there are plenty of add-ons out there that do it inefficiently or incompletely, but they wouldn't be viable on a large, active forum.
4. Implement AMP Project framework - I'm strongly opposed to AMP for ethical reasons, and I'm not alone. I'd rather they not waste resources on this.
5. Scheduled Thread / Post - That's pretty niche. If you really want to do that, it's a few dozen lines of code.
6. Official XenForo Commerce Addon: Donations, Shop, Billing, Monetizing, Ads, Subs, affiliate, etc - Cool idea, but it's not suggesting changes to the core.
7. Send an alert and/or email on a member's birthday - As a forum user: please don't do that. I will mark your emails as spam.
8. Allow nested replies in Q&A Threads - Same issues as #3
9. Tell users why they do not have permission to access a page. - That would likely result in an information disclosure vulnerability.
10. Missing: Social Groups + Group-forums - Seems like a good idea to include in core XF.
11. a dark theme option - If I recall correctly, aren't they planning on implementing this soon? Don't quote me on that, though.
12. Google WebP Support - The whole attachment system is due for an overhaul--and not just to add WebP. To do it properly, though, they'd probably have to drop support for shared hosting, which isn't going to happen.
13. PayPal NVP API - Yup, billing needs an overhaul.

Despite the fact that you and I probably have completely different forums and niches, it sounds like we're both in agreement that there are still things on the first page of that list that need to be implemented. So, as I said, that page may be "the best place to start". I'm not saying that list is the end all, be all. Heck, I don't agree with over a handful of the items on that page, some of the same ones you mentioned included. It does no good for individuals to create feature wish lists, though, because it's not all about our individual forums. There are many factors that need to be weighed when deciding what does/doesn't make it into the core. That said, it shouldn't take 10 years for the dev team to weigh those factors and decide whether, or not, a specific suggestion should be implemented. If not, let's close those suggestions so we at least know they're not coming and we can stop harping on them. There have been plenty of suggestions marked as "Not planned" in that same 10 year span so maybe there are plans to implement some of these that are left. If that's the case, though, it doesn't look good on the dev team, at least in my opinion, that it takes 10 years to do it.

 

[PaulB]

Despite the fact that you and I probably have completely different forums and niches, it sounds like we're both in agreement that there are still things on the first page of that list that need to be implemented.

To an extent. Everything I’d like to see implemented on the first page is infeasible for XF2, with the exception of improvements for payment providers. The rest are going to be relegated to the realm of XF3 or private developers.

With a few exceptions, I’d rather see the XF team focus on areas that aren’t on the first page: better APIs for add-ons, better support for large forums (XFES in particular is due for some love), and dropping support for old tech (e.g., PHP7). Froala is a mess, and I’d love to see that replaced—there’s another viable option for XF2. The add-on installation and upgrade process could be switched over to use JSON exclusively instead of relying on XML in one situation and JSON in another; that’d make quite a few things easier. Permission rebuilds are a bit messy at the moment.

I’d rather they continue to embrace the add-on ecosystem and keep the core lean while improving extensibility. If I wanted a full-featured core without the need for add-ons but at the cost of performance and customizability, I’d probably use something other than XenForo. Everything is a trade-off, and there’s really no perfect balance.

 

[mjda]

Yes, you've been clear about what you want...but what about what everyone else wants? What if maybe, just maybe, the things higher on your priority list are things that are lower, or non-existent, on the majority of other user's lists?

As I said before:

It does no good for individuals to create feature wish lists, though, because it's not all about our individual forums. There are many factors that need to be weighed when deciding what does/doesn't make it into the core.

In any case, I'm not opposed your list, or anyone else's list for that matter, if that's what the XF devs think is best going forward. I have no issue writing my own add-ons for things I really feel like I need. I'd simply like a little more communication from them as far as which suggestions they're considering, not considering, etc. I don't care that they don't provide roadmaps. I know, and agree with, why they don't do that. To have 10 year old suggestions just sitting there, though, is a little ridiculous, especially considering how many in that same time span have already been closed.

To add more to the original topic I'll say that my guess is that it's highly unlikely XF is done adding new end-user features to this software. Why would I want to spend a large amount of money on a 3rd party developer add-on knowing that in the coming weeks that feature very well could be announced as a HYS?