Internet Brands claims against XenForo

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Right, but the lawsuit is in the UK... :)
Yes. I just posted this over at vBulletin because of that very fact:

tickedon said:
I really wanted to avoid giving any sort of reasoned opinion in this thread, but, it seems there's so much FUD that it really can't do any harm.
And............... We all know this how? Where exactly did you get your law degree again?

I know you asked this of someone else, but, let me answer - I got mine in Scotland, UK. Although Scotland (and N. Ireland) have separate legal systems to England and Wales, the law on this kind of stuff is more or less the same across the whole of the UK (with some technical differences).

One of the key cases on "breach of confidence", which covers situations similar to what Internet Brands seem to be claiming, is "Faccenda Chicken v Fowler [1986] 1 All ER 617" (it's actually an English case, so it's all good for this situation).

One of the key passages that this turns on:
"Secondly, there is information which the servant must treat as confidential (either because he is expressly told it is confidential, or because from its character it obviously is so) but which once learned necessarily remains in the servant's head and becomes part of his own skill and knowledge applied in the course of his master's business. So long as the employment continues, he cannot otherwise use or disclose such information without infidelity and therefore breach of contract. But when he is no longer in the same service, the law allows him to use his full skill and knowledge for his own benefit in competition with his former master; and ... there seems to be no established distinction between the use of such information where its possessor trades as a principal, and where he enters the employment of a new master, even though the latter case involves disclosure and not mere personal use of the information. If an employer wants to protect information of this kind, he can do so by an express stipulation restraining the servant from competing with him (within reasonable limits of time and space) after the termination of his employment."

That's actually what a real judge has decided in the UK, which was appealed and upheld. Lots of UK case law is now available freely online, it's there for anyone to go and see.

On the assumption that Kier, Mike and Ashley wouldn't be stupid enough to copy vBulletin code directly (which is all Copyright law in the UK protects in terms of software - other issues are dealt with separately) then based on the previous case law on this, my opinion based on my Scots law degree (and to note, I'm not a lawyer) is that assuming Kier, Mike and Ashley followed the terms of their non-competes and other relevant employment clauses, that XenForo should legally be in a strong position. Obviously there are other issues about whether they'll have the cash to fight etc... etc... but that's not really something being right OR wrong is going to change. Sure, it involves some assumptions - but I really can't see Kier, Mike and Ashley doing anything else. Given IB likely haven't seen the code, most of their claim must be based on them taking over knowledge from having worked on vBulletin and applying it to XenForo (which an English court said was more or less OK, see passage above).

Everyone is entitled to throw around opinions and speculation (obviously within the rules set down by IB/vB) but others attacking others just because they think they know better, and often spouting law or legal positions that don't relate to the UK, is becoming quite annoying and grating.

If anyone is interested in the legal position, the Faccenda chicken case (a great name if I ever saw one) shouldn't be too difficult a read :)
 
What is pretty funny to me is, had XF copied anything from vb 4.x they would be insane... That software is horrible. From what I read, even in their complaint they seem to allude to something developed long ago, before IB came in and destroyed VB..
 
What is pretty funny to me is, had XF copied anything from vb 4.x they would be insane... That software is horrible. From what I read, even in their complaint they seem to allude to something developed long ago, before IB came in and destroyed VB..
maybe something trivial like a bbcode parser.
 
Did anyone else LOL when they read that on the vB forums? I had just woke up this morning poised to purchase the product and had a pretty good laugh.

And to quote my post on vB:
I'm still buying XenForo regardless. Can IB please post a "How to transfer your license" article to make it easier for us?
 
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Just gave IB a piece of my mind in their discussion thread. Probably won't be read, lost in the cloud, but I made my point heard.

That was a good read. Another reason why i'm even more confuddled as to what to do, sigh!

By the way, is it allowed to post stuff restricted to vB license holders? Could give more ammo for the cannons.
 
vbscreenshot
Don't give IB the chance to sue xenforo again for violating their copyright on that screenshot.
I am not planning to buy or use xenforo and I must say that I was upset for advertising xenforo over on vb.com the last months, found this was a real bad behavior.
Anyhow, I wish the xenforo devs all the best in this hard times and hope the damage will be low. Keep up the good work and good luck.
 
And this, folks, is why you should never have the folks in suits in charge of software development. Especially if they're from IB.

Here's to the XF release.
 
Yes. I just posted this over at vBulletin because of that very fact:
Thanks for the read. I wonder if there's a more recent case that covers the same issue, but related to technology / coding. In that lawsuit, skills learned on the job were most likely manual labor. You can only cut up a chicken so many ways, and it's clearly something that you can't unlearn. Similarly, problem solving skills that you've learned on the job as a developer / programmer are also things you can't unlearn, but you can at least actively choose not to solve it in the exact same manner as you did with a previous employer.

In otherwords, unless there's precedent regarding coding style (which I highly doubt), I don't see the case as winnable unless they broke an iron clad non-compete contract. Fortunately, they are rarely iron clad, always fightable (at least in the USA), and exist more to piss off competition rather than the person in the contract themselves.
 
I agree, now that we've seen it, delete it.
Where was that screenshot from exactly? I'd imagine it'd come under free use / free speech. He could always replace the screenshot with the text itself, but I doubt anything would happen with the screenshot staying up.

You're talking about Mr. Bob's screenshot I take it, or something else? Not reading back through 60 pages to find it :)
 
Thanks for the read. I wonder if there's a more recent case that covers the same issue, but related to technology / coding. In that lawsuit, skills learned on the job were most likely manual labor. You can only cut up a chicken so many ways, and it's clearly something that you can't unlearn. Similarly, problem solving skills that you've learned on the job as a developer / programmer are also things you can't unlearn, but you can at least actively choose not to solve it in the exact same manner as you did with a previous employer.

In otherwords, unless there's precedent regarding coding style (which I highly doubt), I don't see the case as winnable unless they broke an iron clad non-compete contract. Fortunately, they are rarely iron clad, always fightable (at least in the USA), and exist more to piss off competition rather than the person in the contract themselves.

As it's a Court of Appeal case, it's been followed in a good few other cases. Including most recently:

Vestergaard Frandsen A/S v Bestnet Europe Ltd [2009] EWHC 657 (Ch)

Crowson Fabrics Ltd v Rider [2007] EWHC 2942 (Ch)

Mantis Surgical Ltd v Tregenza [2007] EWHC 1545 (QB)


I don't think any of them have covered software, but, they've covered manufacturing and the UK courts have been pretty consistent at applying "good old law" to "new problems" presented by online issues, software etc...

Although I hope it doesn't get that far, I do kinda hope that Internet Brands Inc v XenForo Ltd gets added to that list :)
 
Where was that screenshot from exactly? I'd imagine it'd come under free use / free speech. He could always replace the screenshot with the text itself, but I doubt anything would happen with the screenshot staying up.

You're talking about Mr. Bob's screenshot I take it, or something else? Not reading back through 60 pages to find it :)
Yes, but Mr. Bob did not post it. Had he posted his own screen shot it would be different. And we do not want to give IB anything to use at all. It can from a private forum on the vb.com board for members only.
 
I've removed the screenshot just to be on the safe side.
Better to err on the side of caution I think.

If people want to post links then by all means please do.
 
I miss the vB staff posting on vBcom. Do they have a gag order on the matter, or are they not expressing themselves because they kinda agree that IB is eh ... IB-ing.
 
I've removed the screenshot just to be on the safe side.
Better to err on the side of caution I think.

If people want to post links then by all means please do.

Apparently linking to copyrighted content without permission is what got mininova into trouble. :p
 
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