I have been a fan of vBulletin for a long time, well, at least their vB3 stuff. Lets be honest, all my vB4 sites are awful, people hate vB4, its crap. This is known by everyone, even the large media corps like IB and VS use vB3 or later on most of their sites and will likely NEVER upgrade. But I am at the point where I can no longer sit around and be like thumbs up to a place ran by brainless monkeys. At least they got rid of Steve Machol (oh i said it) Steve "hey, whats your favorite ice cream from 8 years ago so I can update your account" Me: "Chocolate?" Steve "nope" Me: "vanilla" Steve "sorry, this does not correspond with our records. I cannot process this request of an inbound license. We will not be able to assist you with your 40+ licenses until you can name your favorite ice cream that you listed on 09 Feb 2005" When XF gets an integrated gallery I will be ready to jump ship. Sadly, too bad XF is now owned by the same company :/ The implosion of IB communities and software is their own doing. Poor management, poor training, poor communication. Lynne, protector of fraudsters on vBorg. The options are awful. Better to be a sheep and not say anything at all.