what are your thought on the crisis in Egypt this week?
- Thread starter kkm323
- Start date
- Status
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
Actually, thats not true. Iraq has had a long history, even prior to Saddam, of Sunni, Shia and Christians living side by side fairly peacefully. You may recall Saddam's Deputy Prime Minister, Tariq Aziz. The second in power in the regime was a Chaldean rite Catholic. Those of Iraqi decent represent the thrid largest community of Israeli Jews.
We don't see religion (or Islamic sect) becoming a factor until Iranian sponsored terrorism enters Iraq. Which circles back to Iranian incited and sponsored violence. You might think Egpyt was a spontaneous response to Tunisia? But weeks before, Tunisia, the Muslum Brotherhood was bombing Chrisitan churches in Egypt - another country with a history of religious tolernace.
This is why it is never as cut and dry as "throw out Mubarak". This is an Isalmic revolution sponsored by Iran, wrapping itself up in good people who genuinely want freedom. But you can't back those people, as much as you would want to, without aiding the Isalmic revolution.
If that comes to pass, then between Qushm Island and The Suez Canal, Iran will control the flow of oil to the world.
yavuz
Well-known member
I understand the "Big Evil Iran" aspect, most at the time it may have truth in it. But clearly you don't really know how the protest movement started in Egypt. It's not an Islamic movement if you would have analyzed how it started and which groups are involved in it as it was in Tunisia.
I've read an interview made with Olivier Roy and his article about the protest in Egypt in the New York Times. And bunch of others of course. There is nothing Islamic in these protests. To say so it's another proof that people are not aware what's going on over there.
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
I can't follow your logic because you're supporting my argument. You say Egypt could go like Iran. I agree because Iran is the one pulling the strings, using the Egyptians through the Islamic Brotherhood. I guess on that we agree.
Then you say "we'll be on the wrong side again." Thats the part that makes no sense. There was no right side to be on in Iran in '79 and there is no right side to be on here. The most beneficial outcome for the US is to back the current Egyptian government, convince Mubarak to step down from within it, and support a rise within the government of a reformer who can deliver what the people want.
My fear is that is far to nuanced for our current foreign policy inept administration to pull off.
AnthonyCea
Well-known member
Fred I don't agree with you most of the time, but you are right on with your last few posts.
SchmitzIT
Well-known member
I have tried, but not succeeded to find my source on which I based my earlier post, leading me to believe it might not have been correct from the getgo. Thanks setting me straight
grant sarver
Well-known member
We can only hope that strategy works, it's very similar to what was done in Iran in '79. I'm just saying that by the time things start falling apart we may have lost our chance to exercise any influence. The exit of a "strongman" and emergence of a weak new "reform" government is when the usurper will step in. Fortunately, there doesn't appear (at this time) to be an Egyptian "Khomeini" in the wings to rally behind.
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
The usurper, as you put it, both in '79 and now is already present and have been since the start. Khomeini was exiled from Iran in 1963 for anti-government activities. He continued to direct government opposition from France using Fada'iyan-e Islam, a group formed in the 1940s seeking to establish an Islamic government in Iran.
Fast foward to today and the playbook remains the same. Khamenei is directing opposition to the Egyptian governemnt from Tehran, using the Islamic Brotherhood, an organization started in the 1920s in Egypt to establish an Islamic government in Egypt.
How is this not obvious? In each case, an indiginous, well establish Islamic group is used by proxity because it has a deep and well defined organization capable of inciting widespread discontent, ultimately leading to a violent uprising and the installation of a fundamentalist Islamic goverment.
yavuz
Well-known member
Islamic Brotherhood (Ihvan-i Muslimin) is just a big player but a small partner in these protests. They don’t control the masses and direct it. Maybe for the first time in Egypt’s history people are bonded regardless of believes or political ideology in such large scale. Protests spread by young people through social media sites like Facebook or twitter were just the awaited sign to protest against the undemocratic regime in Egypt.
Again, for those who supects every movement in the Middle East is Fundamental, there is nothing fundamental or Islamic about it. People want more freedom, food and stability.
Jethro
Well-known member
Surprisingly got into this arguement some time back over Dubya Junior invading Iraq. You can hardly blame the American people when they didn't in fact vote the buffoon into power. The UN should have stepped in there over what amounted to vote tampering in Florida. Nice, another round of arguements and recriminations kick started, off to grab some popcorn and beer.
grant sarver
Well-known member
And how did our policies work in Iran? I think we can agree that we don't want Egypt to become another Iran. The people will rally behind anyone why promises a better tomorrow. They may not know what they want, but they know what they don't want.
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
Sorry, but that doesn't track with the facts. That's the spin from the liberal western media and in fairness, they probably want to believe it, but it doesn't make it so.
Why was Alexandria the location of one of the largest and most violent protests? The answer is it is where the Muslum Brotherhood is centered and where they are the most organized. Why are the April 6 Youth Movement and We Are All Khaled Said so concerned that the Islamic Brotherhood is usurping "their" revolt?
For the first three days, the protests were moderately sized, peaceful demontrations. On Jan 28th, things turned. Alexandria was large and violent. Egyptian secret police began arresting Muslum Brotherhood leaders for their involvment. Ever since the Muslum Brotherhood entered the scene, what was once peaceful and loosly organized has become highly organized and violent. It is no longer a simple Facebook youth moment.
And that should be abundantly clear from the timeline. Organization came AFTER internet and cell phone service was interupted. Now, how can that be if it were a youth moment coordinated through social media? The fact is that is when the Muslum Brotherhood took control. Now they are calling the shots.
Think this is all me? Egyptian Islamist, Dr. Hani al-Sibai, the director of the ‘al-Maqrizi Centre’ in London, warned of “the people’s uprising being hijacked by a [radical] Islamist trend”. His words not mine. Just a few hours ago,
Mohamed Ghanem, one of the leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood, called on military officers to prepare the Egyptian army for a war with Israel.
The more you look behind the scenes and don't allow yourself to fall into the romantic notion of a peaceful student uprising lead through Facebook and supported by youth worldwide, the more you see this for what it is. Iran in 1979 was a student-led revolution too.
Why was Alexandria the location of one of the largest and most violent protests? The answer is it is where the Muslum Brotherhood is centered and where they are the most organized. Why are the April 6 Youth Movement and We Are All Khaled Said so concerned that the Islamic Brotherhood is usurping "their" revolt?
For the first three days, the protests were moderately sized, peaceful demontrations. On Jan 28th, things turned. Alexandria was large and violent. Egyptian secret police began arresting Muslum Brotherhood leaders for their involvment. Ever since the Muslum Brotherhood entered the scene, what was once peaceful and loosly organized has become highly organized and violent. It is no longer a simple Facebook youth moment.
And that should be abundantly clear from the timeline. Organization came AFTER internet and cell phone service was interupted. Now, how can that be if it were a youth moment coordinated through social media? The fact is that is when the Muslum Brotherhood took control. Now they are calling the shots.
Think this is all me? Egyptian Islamist, Dr. Hani al-Sibai, the director of the ‘al-Maqrizi Centre’ in London, warned of “the people’s uprising being hijacked by a [radical] Islamist trend”. His words not mine. Just a few hours ago,
Mohamed Ghanem, one of the leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood, called on military officers to prepare the Egyptian army for a war with Israel.
The more you look behind the scenes and don't allow yourself to fall into the romantic notion of a peaceful student uprising lead through Facebook and supported by youth worldwide, the more you see this for what it is. Iran in 1979 was a student-led revolution too.
Peggy
in memoriam 2016
who didn't vote him into power?
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
Seriously?
The International Debate Society, currently HQ'd in NYC is more dependent on US dollars that Israel or Egypt. It is undoubtably the most worthless organization on the planet. Its the political equivalent of a Hollywood awards night: people talk alot, they're impressed with their own self-importance and when its over, no one gives a damned.
yavuz
Well-known member
Ihvan-i Muslimin has no doubt its own agenda. Something every sane mind would suspect. But minimizing these protests to be a product of radical Islamic organization, which I believe it's not, is also not realistic. The higher your supporter background is the higher is your involvement is in an action. We of course would like them to sit this one out. But that would also very unrealistic as they are the biggest organization yet unrecognized in Egypt.
When Ihvan-i Muslimin was founded by Hasan el Benna, a lawyer, it wasn't intended to be an extremist organization. They believed, people should follow the Quran, that Egypt should be ruled by the power of Islam. Our personal thoughts on that are irrelevant. In the early fifty’s they wanted to exercise their rights. The right to be heard express themselves without any regard, silly or not (Yes, it sounds very romantic).
What they got in return, Hasan el Benna sent to prison like lots of other members of the organization where they were beaten, tortured or killed. Benna stayed there for 17 years. The movement is still not recognized and is banned (Not so romantic).
And you must know that this "extremist Islamic organization" is the biggest organization in all Egypt. They send elected representatives to the parliament of course as elected as they get since no election is recognized by the opposition since it is just over paper.
Germany still has Nazis, heck they even have their party (NDP).
In US there are racists, Nazis and many others. They are free to express their thoughts, exercise their freedom. When you narrow, disallow every right just because you don't like it, people will persuade their freedom in another means. You see it everywhere in the world. People get what they want if they stick to their thought; don’t get intimidated by authority and doesn’t quit.
Everyone has to realize what drives people towards violence and extremism. Government undemocratically selected, making laws against their people and punishing them for their believes. I'm no near rationalizing any radical act or killing by Muslim extremists. It is as heinous as it get. A simple degradation is unfair, completely unrealistic and wrongful.
As far to Dr. Hani al-Sibai's statement, it could be an act of outrage as much as they can be an act of an Islamic organization destroying ancient statues. There has not been any investigation made whatsoever, who the people responsible are, behind the depredations. So basing the idea of a statement of a person even this person has a doctor degree doesn't make this necessarily a fact and is nothing beyond hearsay.
About your thoughts of being a romantic... I would happily be a romantic rather than being blinded of the "Evil Fundamentalist" monster. At least I know that I'm not under the influence of an imaginary figure, fighting against the windmills.
When Ihvan-i Muslimin was founded by Hasan el Benna, a lawyer, it wasn't intended to be an extremist organization. They believed, people should follow the Quran, that Egypt should be ruled by the power of Islam. Our personal thoughts on that are irrelevant. In the early fifty’s they wanted to exercise their rights. The right to be heard express themselves without any regard, silly or not (Yes, it sounds very romantic).
What they got in return, Hasan el Benna sent to prison like lots of other members of the organization where they were beaten, tortured or killed. Benna stayed there for 17 years. The movement is still not recognized and is banned (Not so romantic).
And you must know that this "extremist Islamic organization" is the biggest organization in all Egypt. They send elected representatives to the parliament of course as elected as they get since no election is recognized by the opposition since it is just over paper.
Germany still has Nazis, heck they even have their party (NDP).
In US there are racists, Nazis and many others. They are free to express their thoughts, exercise their freedom. When you narrow, disallow every right just because you don't like it, people will persuade their freedom in another means. You see it everywhere in the world. People get what they want if they stick to their thought; don’t get intimidated by authority and doesn’t quit.
Everyone has to realize what drives people towards violence and extremism. Government undemocratically selected, making laws against their people and punishing them for their believes. I'm no near rationalizing any radical act or killing by Muslim extremists. It is as heinous as it get. A simple degradation is unfair, completely unrealistic and wrongful.
As far to Dr. Hani al-Sibai's statement, it could be an act of outrage as much as they can be an act of an Islamic organization destroying ancient statues. There has not been any investigation made whatsoever, who the people responsible are, behind the depredations. So basing the idea of a statement of a person even this person has a doctor degree doesn't make this necessarily a fact and is nothing beyond hearsay.
About your thoughts of being a romantic... I would happily be a romantic rather than being blinded of the "Evil Fundamentalist" monster. At least I know that I'm not under the influence of an imaginary figure, fighting against the windmills.
anotheralias
Well-known member
Well no, you misunderstand me - I wasn't talking about that whole deal, I'm saying that whoever we vote in makes the decisions. Our decision is who to vote for, and that's where it ends. We don't get to vote on what he (or she) does once in office.
jmurrayhead
Well-known member
I wish everyone knew more about what really goes on, instead of blindly pushing blame at others and coming to conclusions based on opinions and false truths.
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
You're picking and choosing your facts, trying to make the Muslum Brotherhood look benign. The problem is its a lie. Perhaps you've heard of another branch of the Muslum Brotherhood in Gaza? Its the terrorist organization Hamas. Or how about another even more well known organization, al-Qaida?
The Egyptian police are no longer patrolling the Rafah border crossing into Gaza. Armed Hamas members are entering into Egypt and are closely collaborating with the Muslum Brotherhood . The Muslum Brotherhood has fully engaged itself in the demonstrations, and they are unsatisfied with the dismissal of the Cabinet. They are insisting on a new Cabinet that does not include members of the ruling National Democratic Party.
The Muslum Brotherhood is coordinating demonstrators’ activities, including supplying them with food, beverages and first aid. They are the conductor of this orchestrated protest. The original student protesters were used as useful idiots and quickly discarded. Yesterday, it was the Muslum Brotherhood that met with US displomats in Cairo, not student organizers.
Issam El-Erian, a senior leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, and Frank Wisner, a former U.S. ambassador to Egypt met yesterday inside the US embassy. And if you beleive WikiLeaks, the Obama adminsitration has been coordinating with the Muslim Brotherhood since before the student protests.
The problem with being a romantic is that you don't live in the real and dirty world of geopolitics and you project your beliefs and morality into situations where it doesn't fit.
And since you mention Nazis, you might want to do a little research on the relationship between the Muslum Brotherhood and Nazi Germany. You'll find Al-Banna, who you claims wasn't an extremist, was a devout admirer of Adolf Hitlerand the Nazi regime. Al-Banna was so persistent in his admiration of the new Nazi Party that in the 1930s Al-Banna and the Muslim Brotherhood became a secret arm of Nazi Intelligence. So I must ask, where exactly is the bar for your definition of extreme?
The Muslum Brotherhood had ties to Nazis and has ties to Hamas and al-Qaida. They now stand poised to take over the only Arab nation to ever recognize Israel asnd make it a Hamas safe haven.
Now why is this such a huge problem and so potentially destabling? Well think of it this way. There's this small country called Israel, created after the Holocost and they have vowed it will never happen again. They have been increasingly isolated politically by Europe over the last 10 years, and by our current American administration for the last two. If Egypt falls and becomes a hostile regime, and with Iran on the brink of gaining nuclear weapons, Israel will be the most vulnerable it has ever been.
They do have one trump card, however: Negev, the Israeli nuclear research facility that has enabled Israel to develop approximately 400 nuclear weapons, including thermonuclear weapons in the megaton range, Jericho intercontinental ballistic missiles with a range of 11,500 km, and offshore nuclear second-strike capability, using submarine launched nuclear-capable cruise missiles. In short, Israel will no go quietly into the night (my reference to Kristallnacht) ever again.
When a conflict in the Arabian penninsula goes nuclear, you can bet your bottom dollar that the BEST outcome is WWIII. The worst is a complete collapse of the world economies followed by social breakdown and a second Dark Ages, setting back world development by an estimated 400 years.
Now do you understand why analysts are expected to look at things from every possible angle and look for the bad guy? We can't afford idealism or the kind of missteps it seems like the West is taking.
- Status
