The Demise of the United States is Inevitable
- Thread starter Fred Sherman
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DBA
Well-known member
lol That'd be nice however it's to low.
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
I've got a real problem with asking people to pay more when 50% pay nothing at all. In fact, the majority of the money being collected from those who will pay more will go directly to those 50%.
15% flat tax for all income levels and all income types. Income is income. No deductions, no exemptions. If you earn a $1, you pay 15 cents. If you earn a million, you pay $150K. If you earn $10 billion, you pay $1.5 billion.
15% flat tax for all income levels and all income types. Income is income. No deductions, no exemptions. If you earn a $1, you pay 15 cents. If you earn a million, you pay $150K. If you earn $10 billion, you pay $1.5 billion.
craigiri
Well-known member
That's not realistic. Our government, as a percentage of GDP, is not overly large compared to the rest of the civilized world.
"Shrinking" the government, in real terms, means perhaps not letting it grow as quickly as GDP. I'm all for that. I'm extremely fiscally conservative. But when most Americans cheer the bombs dropping, you are going to have a hard time shrinking the military, etc.
The best hope(s) we have are to slightly increase revenues, fix health care in the long run and rein in our "adventures" in military terms.
Talking points are very easy. But our government, nor any large institution, does not turn on a dime. We should fix what we can and head in the proper directions as opposed to thinking we can magically wake up one day and have "small" government.
I've never made a dime from government and don't intend to ever do so - but I do know something about math.
DBA
Well-known member
That's exactly how I look at it.
A simple one page tax code, no need for the 3.8 million word tax code we have now.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
I think I pay 50% tax.
To be truthful, I don't even know.
Maybe it's 40% (29 + 11%) ?
15% flat tax seems impossible.
would it have to be more like 25-30% ?
To be truthful, I don't even know.
Maybe it's 40% (29 + 11%) ?
15% flat tax seems impossible.
would it have to be more like 25-30% ?
craigiri
Well-known member
Well, then we'd have 15% times about 14 trillion or 2.1 Trillion dollars.
Where are you getting get the missing trillion?
Even Flat Tax people suggest 20-26% as being the right number.
As to your first point about poor folks, it is not relevant. No matter how hard you squeeze, you cannot get blood from a stone. Therefore, saying you have a hard time with balancing the books when poor people pay little or nothing is about as relevant as me saying I don't want to pay taxes because the sun is not shining today.
If you are going to discuss reality, we have to agree to respect it.
Even the ultra-conservative Heritage Foundation says:
"For instance, a family of four would not begin to pay tax until its annual income reached more than $30,000"
That would create a similar result as now, where poor folks pay little or nothing. You could increase taxes 10 fold on poor people - but as you well know, 10 times zero is still ZERO.
DBA
Well-known member
It's a progressive tax.
Lets say you had $150,000 taxable income:
Ontario:
$39,020 x 5.05% = $1,970.51
$39,023 x 9.15% = $3,570.60
$71,957 x 11.16% = $8,030.40
Total = $13,571.51
Federal:
$42,707 x 15% = $6,406.05
$42,707 x 22% = $9,395.54
$46,992 x 26% = $12,217.92
$17,594 x 29% = $5,102.26
Total = $33,121.77
DBA
Well-known member
What's the 14 trillion number for?
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
1. Nothing is missing. The government needs to be cut down to size as well. Right from the jump, goodbye IRS.
2. Every income earner pays, no matter how small an income. If you make $20K, you're paying $3K. Want to know why? Because when people start talking about raising taxes, now you feel it too. If someone suggests 20% is better, you know that you're hit for another $1K. You stop thinking about how much someone else can afford to pay and start thinking about how much YOU can afford to pay. The size of government isn't something the rich pay for, YOU pay for it too. You start to make decisions on government spending based not on what you think someone else can afford to pay, but what you can afford to pay. Of course this idea scares the hell out of the left, because you'll see many more conservatives. Its always easy to be a liberal with someone else's money.
3. Spare me the lie. They will have their 15% withheld just like I would. They won't spend it because they won't have it to spend.
4. Income is income. Same tax rate on $30K for a family of four or a single earner. There shouldn't be a penalty for being single and successful or being married and having no children. How people live their lives is none of my business and I don't intend to have it be part of the tax code.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
What countries in the world have flat taxes ?
Looks like
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax#Countries_that_have_flat_tax_systems
Well, looking at that list.
It's easy to surmise that a Flat Tax would never work.
Looks like
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax#Countries_that_have_flat_tax_systems
Well, looking at that list.
It's easy to surmise that a Flat Tax would never work.
EQnoble
Well-known member
My world...also in my world average people don't own businesses nor was I talking about tuition or whatever other CHOICES you made to spend money on.....I WAS TALKING ABOUT INCOME TAX AND THE AMOUNT TAKEN FROM A CHECK...also not to sound crass...but you gave yourself a bigger pay cut in one year than my father has made a year in his entire life.
Who's reality...Fred your comparing your OWN BUSINESS WITH SOMEONE WHO GETS A CHECK FROM SOMEONE ELSE I am talking someone who makes not even enough to feed their family and your talking about 6 figure pay cuts...go head and smash my opinion..I bet I know more poor people than you know business owners. So in my world YOUR'S is not a REALITY for most.
(I don't know where I said anything about business I was talking income tax and like I said before, you are in a class way above most people so watch out for who you step on when you put your foot down.) You made enough money every week in the course of your life to start a real business...like I said some people work 40 hours and bring home a couple hundred to provide for their families for a week...to those people you are rich.
I am sorry Fred I cannot spare you anything...my words were intended for all, directed at none....I don't know exactly how you operate, but don't imply that I have said things I haven't thanks. I am NOT an Obama Supporter, nor do I operate under hope and change. I am a realist. If I wanted to be narrow minded I could say spare me the '50000/yr tuition fees with no writeoff'...because you made a free choice to spend that money...whatever the reason is that is yours and your family's and is not a requirement to survive...just remember that I only know 3 people who were able to go to college (who's parents werent loaded )and one is 29 and it took him 11 years to get the money to do so and it is not even a major university..
You can keep throwing your numbers around all you want...you are still better off than a good portion of our fellow citizens...count your blessings sir.
EQnoble
Well-known member
How is not important...the point is...if you stay at 800 a week now a days and have to raise an entire family on it...you will never even make it to guy 2 status. Your just to busy trying to make 800 work for you. A single person with no dependents can live comfortably (in my location) but to support an entire family on it is tough and it will break you down.
My father has been guy 1 since he moved to this country...he never got a traffic ticket, he paid for his daughter to go to school , he worked hard, he donates to the police unions and the american cancer society. He pays his taxes on time and still offers his help to people for free...He is the MOST dedicated father I have seen in my life..(not saying it because he is my father directly...but if I was him and someone put me through what I put him through I would feel like I deserve a medal) and the hardest working individual I have ever seen...he helped pay for his parents first house in this country when he and they moved here and paid his own way through 1 year of college which he had to leave to support his family and the eventually start his own. 30 something years and he is still not even up to guy #2 status.
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
EQnoble, every first generation immigrant family has a similar story. That's my grandfather's story too. He worked as a baker just barely getting by until the day he died - literally.
He'd be the first to tell you he came here because it was the land of opportunity. And even if he "only got by", he'd tell you life was a lot better than it was when he left Germany or my grandmother left Ireland. He'd also tell you it wasn't his opportunity he was trying to secure coming here, but that of his children and grandchildren.
By that measure, they were more successful than their wildest dreams when the set off for the US.
He'd be the first to tell you he came here because it was the land of opportunity. And even if he "only got by", he'd tell you life was a lot better than it was when he left Germany or my grandmother left Ireland. He'd also tell you it wasn't his opportunity he was trying to secure coming here, but that of his children and grandchildren.
By that measure, they were more successful than their wildest dreams when the set off for the US.
DBA
Well-known member
So basically you should bailout the people that make less than yourself? (I'm willing to bet that you make more than me, where's my check?
) Sorry but that breeds entitlement and it's already bad enough with all the Section 8 and welfare programs we have.You know what the funny this is about this debate? I'm actually a "guy 1". lol
SchmitzIT
Well-known member
Ant. I don't know Fred's situation, but I can assure you that if you start for yourself, you give up a lot of securities that a fulltime employment gives. There is a lot of risk involved with it, and many a business owner who failed finds himself paying for it the rest of their lives. It's even worse when you get employees, as when they are sick, you still have to pay them, while being a hand short. If you also happen to care about these people, you will undoubtedly end up eating away either money set aside for the future, or from your own pocket, rather than just firing them and keep on living the good life.
Fred sounds like he did the former. I am fairly certain he's not the bad guy in this.
craigiri
Well-known member
Stats show that he has little chance of making it to guy 2. The US has fell behind and the biggest indicator of where you will end up...is where you start. That is, we are now a society of haves and have-nots. A person can work day-in and day-out and save-save-save but one medical problem will erase decades of savings and opportunity.
A little head start makes a big diff. I was able to do well based on hard work and ambition - BUT, I don't fool myself like some do.....if my parents were not upwardly mobile, it's unlikely I would have had the chance to succeed. It might have happened - but the odds would have been MUCH worse.
My parents never gave me a vast chunk of change, but as examples:
They helped me afford my first house by helping with the down payment. I've been a homeowner ever since.
They gave me a loan (note) when I started my business. I paid 12% interest, but could not have gotten the money otherwise.
They let me fix up a rent a old carriage house they were not using...on one of their rental properties.
Somewhere back in my mind I knew that if I got in real trouble - they'd be there to help.
These things are of vast importance. If we started truly having universal health care, for instance, we'd see an economic boom result from folks having a "floor" underneath them.
Sure, I can give you some rags to richest stories. But for every one of those there are probably 50 "can't get ahead" stories AND those people are not always inferior to the folks who win the lottery.
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