California Case Update

[Craigr]

Haven't posted in this thread before, but just wanted to say good luck Kier and Mike, hopefully you will get the result you deserve and it will all be over on Monday.

 

[Shelley]

In the mean time, all of their potential customers get advertisements about ugg boots when they browse the forum because it goes against their principles to install a 3rd party add-on and/or update the software to fix the issue. If the 5th comes and we have to wait for January for Kier or anyone else to release an update to fix what can be considered at least a major flaw, if not a security issue... I think you will find many people upset, including me.

but... but... but.... Doesn't the software work?

 

[Pope Viper]

Good luck to the guys, praying for good news on Monday.

 

[we_are_borg]

IT has rather more to do with people who post a lot of hot air hissy fits and keep demanding more information when there is none to give.

The statement we have is that development is on hold due to the court case.

That hasn't changed so there is no real need to post another announcement.

No because Xenforo is giving the people ammunition to fire with, give information and do it on your terms be in control of the message and people can't even target with that information. Give non and people will react to everything that is being said look at the xenforosucks site people believe it luckily not many but still its out there.

I did at one point suggest the same annoucement be posted up weekly prefqaced by the words "No change"

But really I see their point. They expect us to be grown ups not demanding toddlers asking for more instant more when there is none in the cupboard.

"No change" is lick saying no comment but look it from a different standpoint if you can, lets presume you work for a boss just lick many do, your being sued because you have done something do you really think your boss will say well take all the time you need or is it more likely to say well that's your problem. Lets say you own a company lick this and your being sued would you stop all development and sit still in a corner because in the end this is fought and won by lawyers and your company is what pays the bills. I would make sure that my customers where up to date even if its a few lines of information but i would make sure people saw a presence that the company is active.

There wouldn't BE any loyal customers if XF wasn't superb code, superb design.

Since XF IS superb code, superb design, there are not only loyal customers, but three or four times as many waiting renew as soon as the court case is over. PLUS about ten times as many again who will crowd over here as soon as they hear of it to get their first licence.

If content is king code is queen.

Xenforo has nice features not more then that everything you see can be made by other developers and when they do people will switch to a company that will act on what is asked. What people seem to forget that this is the Internet and people forget faster then a gold fish. Take IPB listens to customers and are developing like in overdrive and they say when they made a mistake like the Mobile app not something you want to hear but its plain and simple honest. Content maybe King and code Queen but honesty is God like.

But like i said a good person that knows PR and does not think KAM and/or Xenforo is his/here to worship can make plans and direct the course where Xenforo needs to go. But that would mean that he/she is interim CEO and he/she dictates what is going to happen, that way Xenforo can return to normal business. A year of no action at all will slow your business in that year but to recover fully takes even longer for people that do not worship Xenforo or KAM. If they brought out updates even once in 4 to 5 months you work away bug and other issues and have plenty of time to take it easy but in the mean time people would think the company is working like it should. If you then make sure you have something like a summer or fall sale and give people 10% off the products then you get cash in and you bind people to you. But to pull that off in the state the company now is in is harder to do the people that are 100% behind KAM and/or Xenforo is not the main stream customers its a fraction of the customer base.

 

[we_are_borg]

Excellent rant D.O.A. thank you. I think some have simply never had the experience of being taken to court so they dont know how it affects you. How heroic our developers are. The very fact we still HAVE XF here is due to their courage and sheer stamina in keeping going.

Well Xenforo is still a company that's all , there has been no activity on new versions or even talk of resource manager for a couple of months now. So yes its pure stamina to leave your customers in the dark, luckily the customers have an ace in their sleeve we control when we renew your license and at the moment i have no incentive to renew it and i suspect there are more that think the same as me. Many small businesses are being sued one way or another is it not by a big company it's by it's customers and believe it or not many just keep going because they cared for the customers and they needed the money to support their family. There is only a small minority that can't cope with being sued or need to fall back because they can not cope. Believe it or not but the developers deserved much better then being sued, but new businesses are usually sued in the first five years of their existence, either by suppliers, consumer or old employer.

During the honeymoon stage of the first year it was often said that XF was so much more than just a company putting out a (great) software. We spoke of how this was a real community which shared skills, knowledge, and helped each other.
Well when it gets hard going a real community goes on helping each other. Some are doing that while some have regressed to a childish whingeing and moaning about minor discomforts. But I guess many here are very young with little experience of business life or legal struggles.

Before this year 2012 the community was very tight and the software was great beta that could be deployed on live sites because it was stable etc etc. Now you see the community is divided people are leaving because of no solid information that they need to run their own community/company etc etc. What i think the developers/owners of Xenforo are forgetting is that many customers have their own community/company that they need information to do their job and get into trouble.

I know I'm very lucky to have the knowledge and confidence of 30 years successful business life - never backed a loser yet - to help me make my decision that XF is a good platform with a solid future. I did run away 2 years ago in panic when the court case started. But I kept an eye on it and 3 months later I came back because it was clear how it would go.

Those who know how to assess legal stuff are very clear XF will win this case.
But there are some born pessimists who doubt whether XF will continue afterwards. There's no logic in that. If the intention was to discontinue or abandon XF they could have accepted settlement months ago. They did not. There is no logic in going on through the hammering of legal stress work on and on for any other reason than to continue developing XF.
Once you've known the freedom of running your own business you go though hell rather than go back into a job. If coding is "what you do" the only alternative is to start again, a new forum - crazy when this one has gone through its teething stages. The first two years of any project are the toughest, that's well known so XF is almost through that.

I did not run away at all i bought a license to show support and to setup a new community, i did this after speaking to a lawyer what the implications could be if Xenforo lost the case, based on that i bought the license. How the case will go nobody knows at all even the best lawyer out there can't say in the end it's the Judge that makes the ruling and then what impact it will have. You speak of the settlement but in the end we do not know what was spoken off or even if it was fair.
Every human being reacts different on events in their lives and people that say that it will not impact their own lives if this was going to happen have no idea what legal action do to you, but in the end you still have an obligation to your self, your family and tho your customers.

Oh I have seen some comments that some feel they are not getting a fair return on their contract because there has been no XF 1.2. Ive even seen talk of XF as a rip off. So I carefully checked this as it seemed a peculiar attitude to me.
As I thought the licence fee gives unlimited use of the existing XF version. Plus support for one year. Plus "any updates." There is no guarantee to update. So we all have exactly what we paid for: an excellent software with access to any available development. Same as any other software.

It isn't long to wait now. Business does have these bottlenecks. They turn into good stories later on.

The software is good not great, but in the end it comes down to features and improvements you make to the software, if its not developed after a year it becomes less appealing to use then something else that is willing to work on the software. It's because Xenforo does not have to publicly announce their figures but i would not be surprised that sales of new licenses is less then the expected it to be. As for the rest i think that renewals are great for the customer because like i have done i haven't renewed because of non development and support well i can figure most things out my self or i can ask here or on other sites out on the internet.

I hope for KAM that this is over sooner then later and i really hope they win the case on all points and can't be sued again for the same and can get the lawyer costs back.

 

[we_are_borg]

what would the monthly bulletin be? "hey guys still getting sued, brb".
Next month: "still getting sued guys lol justice system", ad infinitum.

Development is postponed/delayed/shelved pending legal action is about all I would expect as a statement from a company as far as being in the loop goes. Threads like this keep us up to date with the legal details, in it's not in kier's interest to talk here about the details of the case, other then setting things straight when the speculation machine this place is kicks into overdrive. Looking past the 'company' we expect to have working away on our next version of xenforo right now from its xenforo office in developer town, I only see in reality two guys from the other side of the world being screwed by a major player that makes around 100 million a year. We expect, right now, too much from two guys... for all you or any of us may know they may be taking huge personal losses, putting a strain on relations etc, just the fact you're being sued is enough to give you that gut feeling that you're screwed, I got dragged through court for years too and I basically lost the will to give a f*ck about anything. IB can laugh this off because it's a board of directors and some CEO with an army of lawyers and devs dragging this charade through the courts while Kier and Mike sit at home dealing with all this crap. Personally. The IB CEO and the board and the lawyers switch off at 5pm. And at this stage of the game to still be complaining we don't get enough info is ridiculous, it was apparent ages ago this was going to hurt bad.

/end rant

Well you can not comment in length on the lawsuit if you by accident do something that could hinder the case that would not be good. As for monthly updates well use your imagination that you can't work 100% that is something most can understand but even if you can work 1 or 2 hours a week you can still be productive. It hasn't have to be development but openly show your self can have a positive impact on the community if you have brain storms that you want to make say so. If you haven't got time or do not want to talk to all the customers take some one in the community and ask if he/she wants to help out on a voluntary basis and i know for a fact that there are people out there that want to really help out with that. That volunteer can post updates and so on, but either way customers updated and kept in the loop. You can even do other stuff if you want to make a sale for example give discount on branding free its easy money and lots of people are willing to help out and even more if they felt being kept in the loop.

If you lose hope that is the worst thing that can happen and it leads to lots of trouble i never got into a lawsuit only legal stuf to deal with by phone or letter. But i had a time that i did not care at all of anything i lost in a year 13 people that where family or close friends at that time i wished that i could stay in bed, with great effort it turned slowly the right direction, so i now what it feels like to hit bottom and keep getting hit. But in the end it was family, friends, colleagues, doctor and the companies doctor that helped.

I have said this a few times now people complain because there is lack of new information and people have their own community/business to think of by not providing information what's going on it all has come to this. But in the end it's fanatics against people that are realistic even if the first group would get to hear that their license is now invalid many will not complain at all. In this case all the talk on the forum about the case, complaining about development and so on could have been avoided by doing some PR and you only need some one that is willing to help out.

 

[Morgain]

all the talk on the forum about the case, complaining about development and so on could have been avoided by doing some PR and you only need some one that is willing to help out.

Very true. Unfortunately there is always a minority of people who kick up a big fuss to get attention, or worse spread lies and doom and destruction fantasies. That will happen in stress situations regardless of PR - the PR gets twisted to fit the fantasies because people see what they want to see.

At some point a business owner has to take the hard decision not to give time to PR. There just isn't the energy. You're either lacking sleep due to mega overwork, or you sleep too much due to stress depression. The legal crud keeps crashing at you at frequent intervals - dealing with one of those documents exhausts you out of all proportion to the actual work time needed.
Hundreds of times I get clients complaining about things I have no time/ energy to explain because I'm too busy fixing all the problems. That's the nature of a young business.
Just recently I dumped half my woirk on others and became purely a manager. The relief! I woirk only 10 hours a day not not 12 -18. But I can do that`only becauyse I can now afford to pay for mopre of the work to be done by others.
NOW I can do more PR/ explaining, but ironically as I have more time to check things and fix things it's less needed.

Of course XF sales will have gone down. That's to be expected.l
But it's a great shame that members here are doing so much to destroy XF by all these whinges. Exactly what IB is hoping you'll do to enlarge the problem.

I really don't see the problem with waiting a few months. XF is way better than anything else - my latest board goes click click click so fast and smooth on everything. Fantastic addons too.

Please let's see some dignity as we go through the final stage. Whingeing isn't going to make any difference after all. The decision by XF owners to let the court documents and a couple of threads here be their bulletins is clearly not going to be revised. No new development will happen until after the case is done.
It's not long to wait now.

Actually it feels like a car journey with impatient kids in the back whining away because kids dont know how to wait. I wish I could pass out puzzles and sweeties to keep the whingers occupied!

 

[Sador]

Before this year 2012 the community was very tight and the software was great beta that could be deployed on live sites because it was stable etc etc. Now you see the community is divided people are leaving because of no solid information that they need to run their own community/company etc etc. What i think the developers/owners of Xenforo are forgetting is that many customers have their own community/company that they need information to do their job and get into trouble.

To be honest, there has always been drama, and that's the case on pretty much every (company) forum I come or came. Sometimes it's just between members (like the Mark B stuff early on), usually it also ends with complaining about either new features, lack of new features, certain news, lack of certain news, certain news but with lack of the right details on that news, and so on. As far as that goes, it's a bit of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

I do agree that the lack of communication is bad and should have been handled better. I just think that most of the drama would have happened regardless, because some people just like drama. And honestly, most of the "splitting" of the community had more to do with certain people than the lack of updates.

 

[SchmitzIT]

Oh I have seen some comments that some feel they are not getting a fair return on their contract because there has been no XF 1.2. Ive even seen talk of XF as a rip off.

The people stating that are not worth the time it takes to reply to them, as they're simply clueless. Buying a license for any piece of software means you pay for what you get right now.

If people want to buy claim they bought software based on future promises they are promised, they should have jumped when vB4 was pre-sold, as that was exactly that. IB sold nothing but hot air, and too many fell for it. That certainly left a foul taste in my mouth.

With XenForo, as soon as it became possible to buy it, I had an actual piece of software to play with. Not some screenshots and the promise of a 2-months in the future bug-riddled release. Makes you wonder why people are falling for the same **** again, and they're doing so en masse.

Some people just want to get bitten, I guess. I'm never buying anything from IB anymore, ever. Fool me once, and all that.

 

[we_are_borg]

Actually it feels like a car journey with impatient kids in the back whining away because kids dont know how to wait. I wish I could pass out puzzles and sweeties to keep the whingers occupied!

Nice wording but lets take this to Xenforo customers, we the customer are the kids so make sure where kept bussy. This can be done easy and can be fun and it can give Xenforo a nice stepping stone. You can even start now, but going to explain more later on this. Will respond later this evening when i have more time.

 

[Deebs]

Actually it feels like a car journey with impatient kids in the back whining away because kids dont know how to wait. I wish I could pass out puzzles and sweeties to keep the whingers occupied!

The difference is that when I was a kid in the back seat of my parents car and I asked them a question they answered.

 

[Morgain]

The difference is that when I was a kid in the back seat of my parents car and I asked them a question they answered.

The worst thing to do if a kid keeps whining the same question you answered a while ago, is to answer it.
They have to learn not to whine, that it's the wrong way to communicate.

 

[Deebs]

The worst thing to do if a kid keeps whining the same question you answered a while ago, is to answer it.
They have to learn not to whine, that it's the wrong way to communicate.

Really? We, the community posted many questions, then we were told the answers are ready and are being prepared, can you point me to the answers to those questions?

The wrong way to communicate is how KAM treat their customers and this community.

 

[AdamD]

To be honest, while it IS disheartning not seeing any updates, I can understand why there aren't any.

I can only assume the devs here, are now working other jobs, to cover their living expenses and no doubt, the legal fees too.

There's little point in doing work on a project if there's a "possibility" that all their work could be taken by Internet brands.

The fact they've kept the forums open and the ability to buy said product, is something at least.

 

[HuanHKstyle]

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[Slavik]

There is a lot of incorrect information being posted everywhere about whats going on / whats gone on at XenForo. The problem is for every bit of information we correct, 2 more wild theories pop up, so its just easier to let those people get on with it and when they end up being wrong of their own accord it just devalues the other claims they make in the future.

Give someone enough rope...

 

[Nasr]

Well, I guess that's what you like to have people believe. At least, you should make true with your promise and post the "answers" to our questions that were ready for more than 2 months.

 

[Slavik]

Well, I guess that's what you like to have people believe. At least, you should make true with your promise and post the "answers" to our questions that were ready for more than 2 months.

I made no such promise? Again more incorrect information.

 

[RobParker]

I made no such promise? Again more incorrect information.

How about you post the correction then?

As far as i recall Jake/you said that the answers were ready and Ashley would be posting them shortly (a few days at most I think). It's been something like 3 months. The delay was meant to be due to family issues but I'm not sure what could possibly last that long.

I don't want to start another argument but its another of the lies we've been told.

 

[Nasr]

How about you post the correction then?

As far as i recall Jake/you said that the answers were ready and Ashley would be posting them shortly (a few days at most I think). It's been something like 3 months. The delay was meant to be due to family issues but I'm not sure what could possibly last that long.

I don't want to start another argument but its another of the lies we've been told.

I concur.