California Case Update

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Slavik said:
I expect we are already into the tens of thousands of pounds.
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You're kidding, right? Let's use today's currency exchange, shall we? It has been said in this thread that fees are up to $800 which would be about 505 pounds (sorry, I don't have the symbol for it). 10,000/505 = 19.8. I think they'd wasted more than 19.8 hours on this thing. It probably hit the 10,000 mark in the first week. So let's say that it's more the lowball end of $400 per hour (253.53 pounds). That's still only 39.44 billable hours.
 
Edrondol said:
I want what you are smoking. Each new charge and witness has to be researched and defended against individually. This results in billable hours. It's costing them a fortune to add this new stuff!
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Don't focus on the money - focus on the product, the company, and who is "winning" this !!!

XF won't run out of cash - we won't let them - and all the time IB takes messing around with the law suit, XF IS WINNING outside of court!!!

XF is growing, moving forward, developing, gathering a wider following and turning heads. THAT'S THE POINT - IB can't win this in the hearts and minds of web site owners. Any court victory for IB will be a hollow one because I doubt they will get any of the customers back who have left - the damage is already well and truly done.

Whatever happens, when it is finally settled XF will have a viable product, good sized business, and dedicated customers who support them.

A pain, yes. Prolonging things, yes. Costly, no doubt.

But far from over and there's plenty to be won outside of court in the meantime. (y)

Cheers,
Shaun :D
 
To be fair guys, if IB go to the judge and have new alligations and present some sort of supposed evidence, or alligations I guess at this point, the judge has to allow them to put their case together, its how the legal system works.

However, I would hope that Judges are aware of the tactic IB are using and the effect it has on a small start up business (compared to IB). The allegations were such that he obviously wants to hear IB out. However, I would hope (again) that he has a very dim view of companies who use this tatic and will give IB a short timeline to get their case togther and present this new evidence etc..

Does the US have criminal penalties for companies who waste court time? I wouldn't have thought that a Judge would be too happy if IB withdraw or fail to produce any evidence to backup these new claims.

Perhaps I'm just hoping, but seriously, a judge has to know when a large company with cash to burn is simply hounding another smaller company and trying to force it out of business.
 
EasyTarget said:
Frivolous lawsuits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frivolous_litigation#Court_treatment_of_frivolous_arguments
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It probably won't come under that though as its not completely frivolus. IB were quite within their rights to assume that Kier & Mike worked on it before they left Jelsoft's employ, going by their experience of development.

However, it is of course completely wrong, going by what Kier has said, but its their right to have a court decide it.

The latest add-on to the case however with allegation of hacking into computers is a clear-as-day (to us) time wasting exercise, by their own admission, they can't prove it as the logs have been deleted, so I can't wait to see the 'proof' of this.

I still don't think it will ever get to trial, but IB will try and stretch it out as far as the possibly can.
 
Slavik said:
Depends on which charges. VB claims xenforo was created while KAM worked for them, and on that grounds xenforo is their property. This claim can be easily disproved by the SVN repo and other such tidbits.

Claims of copyright infringement would usually carry huge fines, so worst case, Xenforo Limited would have to shut down as they would not have enough liquid to pay vBulletin. ABSOLUTE worst case, KAM could potentially carry jail time on the wire fraud and hacking charges.

Incorrect. Laws are in place to stop that situation, the only way that would work is if Xenforo SELLS the code to vBulletin to pay for costs. However, as XFL is a limited company, there is a nice loophole.

Assuming they lose, KAM auction of the software rights in the UK via a liquidation company and shuts down. I buy those rights to the code, set up a new company and hire KAM.

;)
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I'm quite confused by all this, I mean I'm still puzzled by the fact that they've brought a claim in a US court and how can any US judge exercise jurisdiction over a UK company and UK citizens but that a side, what would be the consequence if they loose of them just ignoring the judgement. Apart from banning the sale of Xenforo in the US, which would be a downer but not the end of the world, unless it goes to trial in the UK they they can't really force any UK company or person to do anything can they?
 
akia said:
I'm quite confused by all this, I mean I'm still puzzled by the fact that they've brought a claim in a US court and how can any US judge exercise jurisdiction over a UK company and UK citizens but that a side, what would be the consequence if they loose of them just ignoring the judgement. Apart from banning the sale of Xenforo in the US, which would be a downer but not the end of the world, unless it goes to trial in the UK they they can't really force any UK company or person to do anything can they?
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Thats the exceedingly funny thing. Even if XF were to lose in the US, there is next to nothing an american judge can do to enforce the ruling.
 
Slavik said:
Thats the exceedingly funny thing. Even if XF were to lose in the US, there is next to nothing an american judge can do to enforce the ruling.
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forbid sale in usa?
what about the million dollars fee, they would probably get uk debt collectors?

this is the moment i really wished i would have been rich and hire an army of lawyers to defend kier, mike and ash.
 
maidos said:
forbid sale in usa?
what about the million dollars fee, they would probably get uk debt collectors?

this is the moment i really wished i would have been rich and hire an army of lawyers to defend kier, mike and ash.
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How would they enforce that? Make every american isp block xenforo.com? Logistically... just not possible without xf's coorperation.

As for any debt, they are for the most part, unenforceable across borders unless the countries have a specific agreement in place. Eg any member of the EU can pass and enforce debt collection to another EU country.
 
Slavik said:
Thats the exceedingly funny thing. Even if XF were to lose in the US, there is next to nothing an american judge can do to enforce the ruling.
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It would not be the American judge who would enforce it....in the case of US-UK judgments, the person with the judgment in their favor would take that US judgment and sue on it in UK court and then enforce it there....I think the chances of any outcome in favor of IB is remote, but I think people need to understand that it would be foolish for anyone to ignore a foreign suit just because it is foreign. There are mechanisms for enforcing foreign judgments in almost every jurisdiction.
 
jadmperry said:
It would not be the American judge who would enforce it....in the case of US-UK judgments, the person with the judgment in their favor would take that US judgment and sue on it in UK court and then enforce it there....I think the chances of any outcome in favor of IB is remote, but I think people need to understand that it would be foolish for anyone to ignore a foreign suit just because it is foreign. There are mechanisms for enforcing foreign judgments in almost every jurisdiction.
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Yes, however they would be able to appeal the ruling on juristiction grounds over here.

Put bluntly, US law does not apply to a UK business. (yes i know the technicalities, but this realy is a blunt and simple statement)
 
Even if a judge ruled that XF can't be sold in the USA by XF/Kier etc, could they sell through a third party instead?
lol, just thinking out loud.
 
jadmperry said:
It would not be the American judge who would enforce it....in the case of US-UK judgments, the person with the judgment in their favor would take that US judgment and sue on it in UK court and then enforce it there....I think the chances of any outcome in favor of IB is remote, but I think people need to understand that it would be foolish for anyone to ignore a foreign suit just because it is foreign. There are mechanisms for enforcing foreign judgments in almost every jurisdiction.
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But doesn't it still have to go to a English Court for a English Judge to rule its valid.

What's happened to the case in the UK any way, that seems to have gone all quite, last I heard was that if they wanted to proceed they IB would have to pay a security. Did they actually do this?
 
Slavik said:
Yes, however they would be able to appeal the ruling on juristiction grounds over here.

Put bluntly, US law does not apply to a UK business. (yes i know the technicalities, but this realy is a blunt and simple statement)
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Near impossible to refute such a statement without clarifying exactly what you mean- the "technicalities" pretty much define the scope of the jurisdiction. For example, British Petroleum would be really happy if "US law does not apply to a UK business." That would sure have saved them a bunch of money from cleaning up the Deepwater Horizon.

The point remains, it would be foolish to ignore a lawsuit because you are a foreigner on the hopes that being foreign means you will have some shield from judgment. Sure, enforcing judgments can be a pain for anyone. However, at the end of the day, people are subject to enforcement of foreign judgments all the time.
 
jadmperry said:
Near impossible to refute such a statement without clarifying exactly what you mean- the "technicalities" pretty much define the scope of the jurisdiction. For example, British Petroleum would be really happy if "US law does not apply to a UK business." That would sure have saved them a bunch of money from cleaning up the Deepwater Horizon.

The point remains, it would be foolish to ignore a lawsuit because you are a foreigner on the hopes that being foreign means you will have some shield from judgment. Sure, enforcing judgments can be a pain for anyone. However, at the end of the day, people are subject to enforcement of foreign judgments all the time.
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Well lets keep it simple.

I set up a shop in the UK selling completely organic milk (unpasturised).

A US citizen on holiday in the UK buys some of my milk, drinks it, gets ill and tries to sue me in the US because US law states all milk must be pasturised.

Even if the US court ruled I was wrong, I would be unaccountable as I am not subject to US law. They could rule I am not to sell any of my milk, and make it against the law to buy my product (which could be enforced on the US citizens), but they could not stop me continuing to sell my product.

In real simple terms, basically this is what is happening with XF and VB.

As for the BP disaster, they ARE subject to US law as they are an opperating entity within the US.
 
Slavik said:
How would they enforce that? Make every american isp block xenforo.com? Logistically... just not possible without xf's coorperation.
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If IB won the case they could possibly get an injunction against PayPal to prevent PayPal from processing transactions for XenForo.
 
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