RM 1.0 Resource Manager Feedback and Thoughts

[Mike]

There has been a considerable amount of discussion and comments on the Resource Manager since it has been implemented... not all of which has been positive. However, I do want to mention that it is still early days and what you're seeing borders on the "minimum viable product" (MVP) concept and will be improved. You can't develop a product solely in a vacuum -- you need to see how it works when people use it and that's when you discover things that need to be changed.

We have taken a lot of feedback on board, and there are various features that we're looking at. Some of these include:

• Purchase support for resources (both for a "single owner" like a shop and "app store" style)
• Custom resource fields (by category, ideally)
• Category hierarchy
• Review support for ratings
• Better limits on who can rate
• And some others

Conversely, there are some suggestions that we don't necessarily agree with and some considerations that need to be taken into account that might not be immediately obvious. I want to cover some of these suggestions to let you know what we think and to try to foster some in-depth discussion. I feel that a lot of the initial thoughts that have been posted have not necessarily thought about other perspectives or what the purpose of X is.

The Resource Manager is a "general use" add-on

This means that despite it only being used on XenForo.com, it's designed to be used by other people with different requirements and desires. As such, when we implement something, we can't just hack in something specific for XF.com. It needs to be approached in a more generic way. Sometimes this way is obvious and most ideas can be spun into something more generic, but it always means more work -- the amount more is what varies, sometimes orders of magnitude more.

The category sidebar should be on the right to be consistent

I find this a slightly weird suggestion and one I don't really understand completely.

First, you'll note that the right sidebar you see on most pages contains less important information. In most cases, if it weren't there, you'd still be able to get around. The category sidebar is the primary navigation system within the resource manager, so it deserves a more prominent display. Most sites either use top- and/or left-based navigation system; I can't think of one with primary navigation in a right column.

Second, it's not actually inconsistent. There are various other places in XenForo that use left-column navigation: Help, the account pages, and automatic page node navigation.

The Resource Manager is a shop front for digital downloads / discussions in resources

(I'm aware of the irony of me calling it that when you can't sell individual items directly, but as we've repeatedly said, it's something we want, but wasn't part of the MVP.)

The talk about whether discussions should be in resources gets to the heart of what the purpose of the Resource Manager is. Foremost, the RM is designed to be a shop front for digital downloads - like Amazon (they do digital downloads ) and your pick of app stores. The primary purpose is to make it easier to discover resources and to keep up to date with them.

Going back to just using threads means that updates to resources are intermixed with general questions, so if you're running add-on X, you have to watch the thread if you want to be informed of updates, but then you're forced to wade through the other stuff to find updates. The RM solves that by allowing you to watch a resource and be notified whenever it's updated, not when there's a comment. Always keep in mind that there are a large number of people that don't post in the add-on threads at all; they just use them. (The same way we have plenty of customers that never post here and probably haven't even registered and have never had "human" contact with us.)

So, this leads me into a few philosophical sounding questions...

In the context of resources, what are discussions? Is it saying that you love it or it worked well (or you hate it)? The reviews system (which would display within a resource) seems to handle that. Is it saying thanks (or other form of appreciation)? The like system and possibly reviews can solve that, but regardless that doesn't make for compelling reading for most others.

So, then we have functionality questions, support, and suggestions. (Anything else I can't think of?) So if the thread is made up of that, what is the distinct value of including that in the resource? Keep in mind that you can always watch the thread if you're interested in more than just the resource (which a lot of people aren't). As a matter of fact, doesn't using the thread system make it easier to work with the comments on resources if you feel they're very important? They keep the visibility via new/recent threads, whereas they wouldn't be there if they were in the resource. There's also the question of whether it's actually worth it to implement all the additional functionality when we have a thread system, though that may vary on a case by case basis.

I do take that allowing the resource author to moderate their own thread would be cool.

Then, the next philosophical question, what is in a resource? Is it just keeping the layout? Is it showing when you view the resource from the list? I'm genuinely curious about this. In theory, we could make the resource threads not show up in what's new and only be discoverable via the resource system. You'd only get updates to them if you watched them. While that would appear to be "in" the resource (the technical implementation notwithstanding), but what's the benefit?

I am after some serious discussion on this, as I'm trying to understand the mindset -- the discussion just seems to pale in comparison to the importance of the resource (for people looking for resources), and the fact that I don't need to ever visit the resource itself to keep up with the discussion means that I don't see a disadvantage to the thread system.

Resources as a "forum" (multiple discussions)

I understand this idea, and it's not unreasonable as a general concept, though it isn't a priority based on what I mentioned earlier: the focus of the resource is on the resource and keeping up to date with it. It's also a big undertaking.

In terms of XF.com, there are some add-ons (in particular) that it'd be useful for, but there's nothing preventing authors from setting up their own areas that consist of more than one thread. People will have different approaches and desires with this, so I don't think they should necessarily be shoehorned into a particular approach. You might say that the thread is a particular approach, but the thread isn't required--we have locked one as the author requested support via his site--and there may be some changes to emphasize that down the line. I'm not sure yet.





I'm sure there are more things I'll come up with, but I think that's enough for now...

 

[erich37]

I know that "Classifieds" are a bit of a stretch in relation to the RM, but only when you think about it initially.

Let's "think out of the box" for some brainstorming and maybe we get to some further ideas of what the RM "could" be, besides of what it is intended to be for use here at xenforo.com
There are relative simple possibilities of extending the common uses and features of a "Resource-Manager".


I guess the "Resource Discussions" have been slightly put away in order the keep the "Resource" itself clean and have it not being derailed by discussions not related to the "Resource" itself, which is understandable and this applies and can be seen at many other business-models as well.

I see the same thing at "Marketplaces", which are intentionally and purposely designed NOT to spur "Forum Discussions", but rather have "Products" presented and customers are able to get in touch with the "Product Supplier" (or name it "Author" for Add-ons or other digital products) directly via "Personal Conversation".

The same thing goes for "Classifieds" (have a look at Craigslist) at which you can see a Product or Service ("Offered" or "Wanted" classifieds) advertised and presented (being files, images, text, etc.).
So there is not necessarily a need for "Add-ons", Products, Services, etc. to have "Forum Discussions", but the need to obviuosly get in touch with the "Supplier" directly.

Of course the "Product Supplier" or "Resource Author" should be able to choose whether he allows to have "Forum Discussions" on his product or not. If he does not want to have "Forum Discussions", alternatively he can choose to get contacted directly via "Personal Conversation".

So literally turn the RM into a "Marketplace" and let the "Supplier" (Author) decide whether he wants to have "Discussions" on his product or wants to be contacted directly.

http://xenforo.com/community/threads/xf-classifieds.14894/page-3#post-316920

 

[Kevin]

One thing I've noted that I believe should be in there that I haven't seen (or may have been suggested but I haven't seen it) is the ability to show a relationship between resources....

"Great minds...."

http://xenforo.com/community/threads/translations-add-ons-is-useless.26737/#post-320180

 

[Kim]

That sidebar on the right is just bad design. It is important information and therefore should be somewhere that you will notice. Right side of the page is for secondary content. Notice when the sidebar is on the left it is something important like the resources and help. They are both navigation which is one of the most important things in web design. On the forum screenshot however you will see all the information is stuff that doesn't even matter. It might look a little better to you but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Bulllllllll Crap.

IMHO Right side of the page is for important stuff... far left is for non important stuff.. my eyes are drawn to the right - to content within posts, to the sidebar on the forum index etc. You might have a different experience, and that is fine, however given there has beeen a HUGE amount of feedback about this, your experience is obviously not the same as a lot of others, myself included.

This is one of those things that is obviously dividing the community, why not make it optional, left or right aligned.

 

[MilesDB]

This is one of those things that is obviously dividing the community, why not make it optional, left or right aligned.

With categories column on the right the main body looks and feels forumy which means homy for many of us. I am also for at least making column alignment optional.

 

[yavuz]

I'm gonna write this otherwise explode It's very entertaining to watch some people here getting all wrapped up about nuances and angry about stuff. Relax folks, there are far more importand stuff in this world than a few lines of code. It will happen, eventually. **Stops trolling and goes back to normal ***

 

[kkm323]

I don't agree with placing the nav. in the right site simply because it doesn't make sense for user to have category in the right than the result appear in the left it make more sense the other way around . I understand that for RTL languages it should be in the right without a question. overall I like what i am seen and it shows that xf team put a lot of thought in the product, the reason why I am here, however it should include RSS

 

[Digital Doctor]

While you're free to disagree and think things we do suck,

Suck is your word, not mine.
For the record, I'm very complimentary of Xenforo alot of time. Would you like to read some of my posts where I go on at length about the strengths of Xenforo as a forum software ? Did you miss the few hundred posts like that ? Try the Pre Sales forum. I'd be happy to find you the posts where providing some information and testimony to the Pre Sales people ended up in a purchase. Mike I give honest impressions, as I see things.
I will never be a Xenforo Fanboy like Forsaken, whom will attempt to twist any situation to make it look good for Xenforo, even if it doesn't represent reality.

Let's review what was said:

Where has anyone said that the purpose for the resource manager would be anything but downloading resources?

Really ? It's frankly insulting Forsaken would think that is even half true. He is stating that the Resource Manager was only intended to be a Downloads addon. Do you support this notion ? My comments to Forsaken were replying to his post. I feel his post is inaccurate and no one felt the Resource Manager was intended to be merely a Downloads Addon. Forsaken attempted to spin things, albeit unsuccessfully.

if you're going to just troll and be unconstructive, that's not going to fly.

I take alot of time making comments which I intend to be constructive. I'll mock up some things to illustrate things I am trying to communicate. To characterize "all my posts" as "just trolling" is unfair. In the thread you locked I gave my initial impressions of the Resource Manager. I could repost them if you want more feedback. Frankly, I thought you might be busy responding to the concerns expressed by others already.

I've responded to your thoughts in the past and you just ignore that post and start the same old diatribe elsewhere. Don't think that behavior is appropriate or being overlooked.

Huh ? I didn't even *MENTION* I think that Xenforo needs to host paid addons here at Xenforo. So, that's not really discussing the "same old diatribe".

Mike, I want what everyone else want in an Addons Community: Great addons, at an affordable price, with reasonable support. People looked forward to the Resource Manager propelling Xenforo in that direction. I think the reactions expressed by others in this thread represents the reality.. the Resource Manager missed the mark. I leave it up to you to decide what didn't go as well as planned.

 

[Kim]

I'm gonna write this otherwise explode It's very entertaining to watch some people here getting all wrapped up about nuances and angry about stuff. Relax folks, there are far more importand stuff in this world than a few lines of code. It will happen, eventually. **Stops trolling and goes back to normal ***

I'm not angry

For me and what is obviously a lot of others, the left category menu placement is NOT working, given Mike asked for feedback, then pretty much dismissed all of our feedback with the statement that it is OK as there are other areas where the forum uses left menu, I feel it is important to point out that whilst that might be the case, within the RM it is NOT OK for a whole bunch of us.

Why not as I suggested just make it an option to have the menu left or right, I am sure the clever fellows can do that without it being a drama.

All this "THIS IS BEST - YOU"RE DUMB TO EVEN THINK OF IT BEING OVER THERE" type arguments from members are rather futile as clearly we are divided on which is best, so no one placement is going to please all.

XF have shown they are masters of offering us choices that please the majority.. all I am asking for is more of the same.

 

[Forsaken]

I'm not angry

For me and what is obviously a lot of others, the left category menu placement is NOT working, given Mike asked for feedback, then pretty much dismissed all of our feedback with the statement that it is OK as there are other areas where the forum uses left menu, I feel it is important to point out that whilst that might be the case, within the RM it is NOT OK for a whole bunch of us.

Why not as I suggested just make it an option to have the menu left or right, I am sure the clever fellows can do that without it being a drama.

All this "THIS IS BEST - YOU"RE DUMB TO EVEN THINK OF IT BEING OVER THERE" type arguments from members are rather futile as clearly we are divided on which is best, so no one placement is going to please all.

XF have shown they are masters of offering us choices that please the majority.. all I am asking for is more of the same.

Even if they don't give a choice, it is easy enough to change:

.resourceListSidebar { float:right !important; }
.resourceListMain 
{
margin-left:0;
margin-right:230px;
}

 

[dieketzer]

We have taken a lot of feedback on board, and there are various features that we're looking at. Some of these include:

• Custom resource fields (by category, ideally)

................

The talk about whether discussions should be in resources gets to the heart of what the purpose of the Resource Manager is. Foremost, the RM is designed to be a shop front for digital downloads - like Amazon (they do digital downloads ) and your pick of app stores. The primary purpose is to make it easier to discover resources and to keep up to date with them.

Going back to just using threads means that updates to resources are intermixed with general questions, so if you're running add-on X, you have to watch the thread if you want to be informed of updates, but then you're forced to wade through the other stuff to find updates. The RM solves that by allowing you to watch a resource and be notified whenever it's updated, not when there's a comment. Always keep in mind that there are a large number of people that don't post in the add-on threads at all; they just use them. (The same way we have plenty of customers that never post here and probably haven't even registered and have never had "human" contact with us.)

considering that graphics and addons are currently listed in the RM, and there is near certainty that custom resource fields will come into play, is it safe to assume template modifications can be listed along with a zip of oldschool 'find and replace' instructions?
what about code modifications? id love to simplify 'disable colour in tinymce' for example. i can upload the relevant edited files as a listing?
what about style edits that are little more than extra.css additions? or is that too minor to justify a listing?
due to the nature of xf updates, i reckon template and code modifications are probably the two types of mods that would benefit the most from the RM.

 

[Forsaken]

Suck is your word, not mine.
For the record, I'm very complimentary of Xenforo alot of time. Would you like to read some of my posts where I go on at length about the strengths of Xenforo as a forum software ? Did you miss the few hundred posts like that ? Try the Pre Sales forum. I'd be happy to find you the posts where providing some information and testimony to the Pre Sales people ended up in a purchase. Mike I give honest impressions, as I see things.
I will never be a Xenforo Fanboy like Forsaken, whom will attempt to twist any situation to make it look good for Xenforo, even if it doesn't represent reality.

Let's review what was said:


Really ? It's frankly insulting Forsaken would think that is even half true. He is stating that the Resource Manager was only intended to be a Downloads addon. Do you support this notion ? My comments to Forsaken were replying to his post. I feel his post is inaccurate and no one felt the Resource Manager was intended to be merely a Downloads Addon. Forsaken attempted to spin things, albeit unsuccessfully.


I take alot of time making comments which I intend to be constructive. I'll mock up some things to illustrate things I am trying to communicate. To characterize "all my posts" as "just trolling" is unfair. In the thread you locked I gave my initial impressions of the Resource Manager. I could repost them if you want more feedback. Frankly, I thought you might be busy responding to the concerns expressed by others already.


Huh ? I didn't even *MENTION* I think that Xenforo needs to host paid addons here at Xenforo. So, that's not really discussing the "same old diatribe".

Mike, I want what everyone else want in an Addons Community: Great addons, at an affordable price, with reasonable support. People looked forward to the Resource Manager propelling Xenforo in that direction. I think the reactions expressed by others in this thread represents the reality.. the Resource Manager missed the mark. I leave it up to you to decide what didn't go as well as planned.

I had to unblock you from the CSS ignore method, but quite honestly if you're not trolling you wouldn't be posting as many insults about me as you have since I stopped responding to your garbage.

Move on, I know I did, and quite honestly I find XenForo a much better place for it.

 

[ragtek]

One thing I've noted that I believe should be in there that I haven't seen (or may have been suggested but I haven't seen it) is the ability to show a relationship between resources.

For example, my blog add-on is located here and someone created a spanish translation here. Aside from the title and perhaps a search, you have no idea that they are related. While you could view the translation and see in the description or name that it's a language file for an add-on, if you view my add-on there's no indication translations exist. I could include it manually in the description myself, but that's something extra to keep track of that I shouldn't have to (especially when there's at least 6 or so translations I need to look out for that haven't been moved to the RM yet).

What I'm suggesting is that on the "parent" resource page, add the ability to "Add Related Resource" or something along those lines so that when people make enhancements or translations for one resources you can see their relation in one place. The resource owner can always add related resources themselves but for 3rd-party submissions from people who create translators, the resource owner should be able to have the ability to approve/remove them.

Right now all resources are treated the same which works when everything is supposed to be separate. When resources are supposed to be partnered with an existing resource because they're dependent on it to work the RM should reflect that rather than keeping them apart.

that's what i "tried" to request here

 

[Paul B]

is it safe to assume template modifications can be listed along with a zip of oldschool 'find and replace' instructions?
what about code modifications? id love to simplify 'disable colour in tinymce' for example. i can upload the relevant edited files as a listing?
what about style edits that are little more than extra.css additions? or is that too minor to justify a listing?
due to the nature of xf updates, i reckon template and code modifications are probably the two types of mods that would benefit the most from the RM.

Template and code modifications, along with CSS tips and guides don't really fit the RM, which is why those forums have not been archived and will carry on as before:
http://xenforo.com/community/forums/template-modifications.37/
http://xenforo.com/community/forums/code-modifications.50/

Of course that's just the policy which has been decided for here, anyone is free to use the RM for whichever purpose suits their needs on their own site.

 

[Mike]

I'm not angry

For me and what is obviously a lot of others, the left category menu placement is NOT working, given Mike asked for feedback, then pretty much dismissed all of our feedback with the statement that it is OK as there are other areas where the forum uses left menu, I feel it is important to point out that whilst that might be the case, within the RM it is NOT OK for a whole bunch of us.

<snip>

XF have shown they are masters of offering us choices that please the majority.. all I am asking for is more of the same.

I would like to note a few things.

First, having reasons to believe that setup X is better than Y is not "dismissing all of [your] feedback". It's really just picking what I feel is a better approach. Even if there were an option, there'd obviously be a default (and you know that most people don't change many options ). As noted, it's simple to adjust in EXTRA.css.

On the topic of an option, note that we don't have this anywhere else with sidebars. Generally speaking, XF is not about offering thousands of options for every little nuance. We will often pick the most logical option and go with that. Obviously there's a balance.

Finally, (connecting to a previous post) if your eyes jump to the right, shouldn't the other sidebars be moved to the left, as they generally show superfluous information (for the page at hand)?

 

[Mike]

Mike I give honest impressions, as I see things.

Please do, but be constructive. There were multiple posts in this thread that weren't useful at all.

I will never be a Xenforo Fanboy like Forsaken, whom will attempt to twist any situation to make it look good for Xenforo, even if it doesn't represent reality.

Personal attacks will really undermine your credibility...

Really ? It's frankly insulting Forsaken would think that is even half true. He is stating that the Resource Manager was only intended to be a Downloads addon. Do you support this notion ? My comments to Forsaken were replying to his post. I feel his post is inaccurate and no one felt the Resource Manager was intended to be merely a Downloads Addon. Forsaken attempted to spin things, albeit unsuccessfully.

Reread my first post. The RM is primarily designed as a shop front for digital downloads. So he's not incorrect, though I hope we can do it really well.

I take alot of time making comments which I intend to be constructive. I'll mock up some things to illustrate things I am trying to communicate. To characterize "all my posts" as "just trolling" is unfair. In the thread you locked I gave my initial impressions of the Resource Manager. I could repost them if you want more feedback. Frankly, I thought you might be busy responding to the concerns expressed by others already.

I welcome them, but keep in mind the purpose and scope of the RM.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to suggest that you need to suggest things in a narrow mindset, but conversely, don't be surprised if some ideas get a "no thanks" response--possibly for technical reasons, possibly because it's too specific (for XF.com only or a small number of sites), possibly because it's just not a good fit.

 

[Kim]

I would like to note a few things.

First, having reasons to believe that setup X is better than Y is not "dismissing all of [your] feedback". It's really just picking what I feel is a better approach. Even if there were an option, there'd obviously be a default (and you know that most people don't change many options ). As noted, it's simple to adjust in EXTRA.css.

On the topic of an option, note that we don't have this anywhere else with sidebars. Generally speaking, XF is not about offering thousands of options for every little nuance. We will often pick the most logical option and go with that. Obviously there's a balance.

Finally, (connecting to a previous post) if your eyes jump to the right, shouldn't the other sidebars be moved to the left, as they generally show superfluous information (for the page at hand)?

You will of course do it the way you want it, but there is little point asking for feedback if it is set in concrete as it is. Fortunately Forsaken has already come up with a workaround, so if/when you do release the RM, if/when I purchase it, I can set it to how it would please me.. if however I got a lot of feedback that it was not working I would look at changing it.

Your last point is not accurate, in that the info on the sidebar is actually important to me, who is online is something I used to have to scroll to China for on other software.. they never thought of putting at eye line of vision, XF did, thus raising the (in my opinion) rather unimportant sidebar to important status.

You do your self a disservice by considering that unimportant.

Anyway.. end of the day, you will do what you want, and good luck to you.

 

[Biker]

I think the biggest thing I'm seeing with the product is it doesn't really lend itself to the feel of being totally integrated. It feels more like that #$)(*&@# report center.

 

[jmurrayhead]

I think the biggest thing I'm seeing with the product is it doesn't really lend itself to the feel of being totally integrated.

It's kind of reminding me of vBlog. Yeah, it has its own main tab up there, but so what? If you take it out of the context of XenForo customers and put it to real use, site visitors aren't going to say, "Oh, that says resources. I think I'll click it to find out what's there". It's all about presentation. When a visitor comes to a site, they want to see previews of what's going on. Things that will entice them to click and check out. And I'm definitely of the belief that there needs to be one "What's New" tab that identifies all new content, not just forum posts. And I know recent activity is great...but it's bloody hidden! The front page of a site should give visitors a preview of what's available everywhere, not just the forums.

It feels more like that #$)(*&@# report center.

It's still way better than vBulletin's non-existent report center. You know, where you have to dig through the user cp or admin cp to find out if there's anything in moderation and such.

 

[MilesDB]

....Even if there were an option, there'd obviously be a default (and you know that most people don't change many options ). As noted, it's simple to adjust in EXTRA.css.

For non techie people it would be inconvenient to edit EXTRA.css after each new release.

...Generally speaking, XF is not about offering thousands of options for every little nuance. We will often pick the most logical option and go with that. Obviously there's a balance.

This is about layout consistency for some of us. If implementing this option is not that of a difficult task, it would add appeal to the RM and xF as a whole.

 

[Paul B]

For non techie people it would be inconvenient to edit EXTRA.css after each new release.

It only needs to be done once.

The content of EXTRA.css is preserved during upgrades and it never needs reverting.