Implemented...ish Making the case for a XF native app

[Ludachris]

I know XF is forum software, and I understand that forums are fundamentally different than social media. I know that Tapatalk is a viable option for many forum owners. I've tried it but it wasn't the right solution for my site, mainly because it doesn't work with various plugins that website owners tend to use to try and set themselves apart from their competition and make their forums more sticky and cool (among a few other deal breakers). I understand that an app is costly to develop and that it's difficult to come up with something that will make the masses happy.

With of all that said, here's the case I'm making for an XF native forum app:

If your forum members take photos using their phones, where are they more likely to share those photos these days? The road blocks and extra steps it takes to open a browser on the phone, navigate to your forum, click around and find the right place to post the photo in the forum, and then use the upload feature to click around and locate the photo on the phone takes WAY more time than clicking the Share button after you take that photo and selecting FB or Instagram. And when you have a lot of the people in that forum as friends on your social network, why go through the extra hassle of also sharing that content in a forum?

Social media networks have given the user the ability to make their own networks that they used to depend on forums to access. I don't think this will kill forums, but it will certainly start taking away from a big part of what used to make forums sticky. For some communities - take the car enthusiast communities for example - those photos signify what a member is working on at the moment with their car, and that is an extremely important community-building element that is starting to drop off in forums these days because it's FAR EASIER to share that content on social media via mobile, especially with the upward trend in mobile device usage for interaction. This is not a problem that is/will be exclusive to the automotive community.

I've been talking with members of my site for several months about this, getting their feedback and taking notes. The consistent message coming back is that the forum will always be a great place for finding technical information, but that FB is becoming more preferred for engaging and networking with other car enthusiasts because of how simple it is to use, especially on a mobile device. The problem is, being a technical resource ONLY is not going to keep a forum community thriving.

Over 65% of my traffic views the site on a mobile device these days. I'm using a mobile friendly theme without Tapatalk (for various reasons). And though the site is easy enough to use on a mobile device, I would LOVE to have an app that is native to XF that was build in a way that it coule be extended by some of the talented plugin developers we have in this community (like @Bob who built Showcase and other cool content-centered plugins). If I install an app it has to encompass all areas of the site where I collect content - when that user clicks Share after they take a photo I need to be able to give them quick and easy options to share that content in my forum somewhere so that they don't just share it on FB or IG instead.

The simplicity and ease of sharing content from mobile is becoming more and more expected from the average user. And the traditional way the user has to go about posting in a forum is falling behind in terms of modern day usability. I'm not advocating forums be more like social media. I'm advocating exploring ways to make forums as easy to use as social media on mobile device and doing it in a way that it's extendable - so that plugin developers can tie their plugins into standardized locations.

I'd pay an upfront license fee and a monthly fee for that and I know quite a few other forum owners who run their forum as a business and rely on advertising revenue would invest in this as well. I'd think it's worth exploring and I imagine the XF decision makers probably already have, and probably keep revisiting as mobile usage continues to increase. As someone who didn't used to be too concerned about social media being a competitor a few years back I now see why it's very possible that forums could be used less and less for sharing content and networking among people with similar interests - which could turn forums into obsolete, searchable newsgroups.

We need to keep people engaged and make it extremely easy to have new, quality content posted on our sites. I've always felt XF was forward thinking in the forum space, which is why I moved over from vB last year. I'm hoping the XF devs will seriously consider revolutionizing the way members post content on forums using mobile devices, I like most everything else they've done with the script so far.

 

[Kirby]

I can create a mock-up but that would be better suited for a different thread.

I'd be interested in this mock-up

 

[Ludachris]

I'd be interested in this mock-up

I’ll work on one if you’re truly interested in the idea, and not just trying to argue why it isn’t necessary.

 

[Kirby]

I'd be truly interested if it does requires less than 3 clicks to select the target forum as I can only think of a solution that does require 3 (Open Overlay, Open Select, Select Target Forum) vs. 2 clicks with existing functionlity (Open Overlay, Click on Target Forum)

 

[Ludachris]

I'd be truly interested if it does requires less than 3 clicks to select the target forum as I can only think of a solution that does require 3 (Open Overlay, Open Select, Select Target Forum) vs. 2 clicks with existing functionlity (Open Overlay, Click on Target Forum)

Just posted a new suggestion thread, to keep this thread on topic:

Lack of interest - Quick Thread form as an overlay

I'd like to make it quicker for people to post content on the forum. One of the ways I think we can do this is to create an overlay for the quick thread functionality, so that it works similar to some of the widely adopted social apps. Here's what I am picturing - when you click the Post Thread...

xenforo.com

 

[frm]

My opinion on this, as running XF solely as a pseudo-anonymous platform collecting 4 pieces of information (only 1 vital to comply with COPA) is that there is no need for an app; people need a voice that they can't necessarily rely on social media when it comes to controversial topics without creating a fake account, and even then, the message sent isn't received.

An app opens members up to being tracked and much more by slowly creeping in permissions to gather this and that, which they may enable. From a privacy standpoint, I'm against it. KISS and add a desktop shortcut. Otherwise, you're just going to try and get more info to track interests... becoming no better than social media platforms.

 

[jmurrayhead]

My opinion on this, as running XF solely as a pseudo-anonymous platform collecting 4 pieces of information (only 1 vital to comply with COPA) is that there is no need for an app; people need a voice that they can't necessarily rely on social media when it comes to controversial topics without creating a fake account, and even then, the message sent isn't received.

An app opens members up to being tracked and much more by slowly creeping in permissions to gather this and that, which they may enable. From a privacy standpoint, I'm against it. KISS and add a desktop shortcut. Otherwise, you're just going to try and get more info to track interests... becoming no better than social media platforms.

Who's tracking users? XenForo? I doubt they would do that. Even if it were the case, you could simply choose not to enable it for you communites. It would have to be an option choice for site owners to make on their own.

 

[Ludachris]

My opinion on this, as running XF solely as a pseudo-anonymous platform collecting 4 pieces of information (only 1 vital to comply with COPA) is that there is no need for an app; people need a voice that they can't necessarily rely on social media when it comes to controversial topics without creating a fake account, and even then, the message sent isn't received.

An app opens members up to being tracked and much more by slowly creeping in permissions to gather this and that, which they may enable. From a privacy standpoint, I'm against it. KISS and add a desktop shortcut. Otherwise, you're just going to try and get more info to track interests... becoming no better than social media platforms.

Maybe some admins will want to track more, but not all of us do. I don't. I just want to give my users what they're asking for to make the site even easier to use from a mobile device, and thus, attracting more user generated content as a result. I guess my response to your point is, why on earth would I not give a large percentage of our users what they're asking for because of a potential privacy concern that they could easily opt out of by simply not using the app? Most users know their activity is tracked when they use apps, and they use them anyway. Those who have privacy concerns can just use a browser. You can easily appease both groups instead of catering only to the smaller group.

 

[frm]

Maybe some admins will want to track more, but not all of us do. I don't. I just want to give my users what they're asking for to make the site even easier to use from a mobile device, and thus, attracting more user generated content as a result. I guess my response to your point is, why on earth would I not give a large percentage of our users what they're asking for because of a potential privacy concern that they could easily opt out of by simply not using the app? Most users know their activity is tracked when they use apps, and they use them anyway. Those who have privacy concerns can just use a browser. You can easily appease both groups instead of catering only to the smaller group.

My only counter to that is the development costs are going to be passed on in a new price rise for future licenses. It's not necessary as all addons won't function fluidly. If you run a straight forum with minimal addons, so be it; it might work for you. For the majority, a lot of sites require addons to function. An app will essentially strip these to bare bones unless an API is made and all addons conform to it.

 

[jmurrayhead]

My only counter to that is the development costs are going to be passed on in a new price rise for future licenses. It's not necessary as all addons won't function fluidly. If you run a straight forum with minimal addons, so be it; it might work for you. For the majority, a lot of sites require addons to function. An app will essentially strip these to bare bones unless an API is made and all addons conform to it.

Then those sites can choose not to use the app. So why should people who want this functionality, miss out?

 

[Ludachris]

My only counter to that is the development costs are going to be passed on in a new price rise for future licenses. It's not necessary as all addons won't function fluidly. If you run a straight forum with minimal addons, so be it; it might work for you. For the majority, a lot of sites require addons to function. An app will essentially strip these to bare bones unless an API is made and all addons conform to it.

From what I've been told it depends on the type of app. A "wrapper" type app could allow the forum to work as it does in a browser but tap into the phone in ways a basic browser cannot. Add-ons would work as normal. Again, I'm not a mobile web app developer, I'm going off of what some of them have told me.

As for price, I wouldn't mind paying a separate price for the app. I would hope they'd structure the pricing that way.

 

[frm]

Then those sites can choose not to use the app. So why should people who want this functionality, miss out?

Because we're speaking of a lot of money being invested in a native app, which will eventually cause another price rise. It's inevitable with the R&D and a completely new framework (two actually: one for Android and one for iOS) to not charge more for standalone XF in order to make up for the initial investment. Common sense business practice. Do you think they'll sell the standalone app as an addon only? I highly doubt that as more sites rely on addons, from what I see, than just a basic out of the box XF setup. The price will have to increase.

 

[frm]

From what I've been told it depends on the type of app. A "wrapper" type app could allow the forum to work as it does in a browser but tap into the phone in ways a basic browser cannot. Add-ons would work as normal. Again, I'm not a mobile web app developer, I'm going off of what some of them have told me.

As for price, I wouldn't mind paying a separate price for the app. I would hope they'd structure the pricing that way.

These "wrapper" apps aren't suitable to be accepted into the stores from what I've heard.

 

[jmurrayhead]

Because we're speaking of a lot of money being invested in a native app, which will eventually cause another price rise. It's inevitable with the R&D and a completely new framework (two actually: one for Android and one for iOS) to not charge more for standalone XF in order to make up for the initial investment. Common sense business practice. Do you think they'll sell the standalone app as an addon only? I highly doubt that as more sites rely on addons, from what I see, than just a basic out of the box XF setup. The price will have to increase.

Business comes with some risk. You're basing your opinion against an app on an assumption of how XF will price it out. Yes, XF will need to recoup costs, but that's something they would have to consider based on what they're capable of and the demand. The first step is to determine the demand and this should be based not only by the customers here, but the regular visitors of their web sites. XF is missing out on a business opportunity here. Isn't IPB working on or already have created a native app? Do they seem to be suffering? Are their customers upset with pricing?

The important take away is people shouldn't be basing their negativity on this idea over something that hasn't even happened yet.

 

[Ludachris]

Personally, I don't understand any of the negative comments or mindsets when discussing this topic. It's one thing to think you won't need this for your forum, but to be against it based on assumptions (like potential pricing changes, privacy concerns, add-on compatibility, etc) just seems odd. Those would all be discussions that would need to take place to move the idea forward, if the XF dev team felt they wanted to go down that path.

If you don't need an XF mobile app for your forum, all you'd have to do is not click the Like button in the first post and move on and Like suggestions you feel would benefit your forum. That simple. No need to "educate" everyone on why it's a bad idea in your opinion.

 

[Paul B]

If you don't need an XF mobile app for your forum, all you'd have to do is not click the Like button in the first post and move on and Like suggestions you feel would benefit your forum. That simple. No need to "educate" everyone on why it's a bad idea in your opinion.

Everyone is entitled to post on a suggestion thread, whether it is for or against.

That's not something we're ever going to disallow.

 

[Ludachris]

Everyone is entitled to post on a suggestion thread, whether it is for or against.

That's not something we're ever going to disallow.

Not saying you should disallow it - I just don't understand the negative/limiting mindsets in a lot of the replies. If you guys find it useful in your decision making process, so be it.

 

[Slavik]

Well in 8 pages of suggestions I dont think theres a single unified agreement on what the app should look like, and that in its own right is a great argument against it.

 

[jmurrayhead]

Well in 8 pages of suggestions I dont think theres a single unified agreement on what the app should look like, and that in its own right is a great argument against it.

I disagree. That's up to XenForo to determine based on what they feel meets the needs of the majority and then update over time based on feedback. There is definitely a common theme in posts in favor of an app.

 

[Ludachris]

Well in 8 pages of suggestions I dont think theres a single unified agreement on what the app should look like, and that in its own right is a great argument against it.

I didn’t think we were close to a point where we could even discuss what it could look like. I’d want the devs involved in those discussions. Most of the discussion was a debate about whether the dev team should even consider it, which is disappointing that so much energy was wasted on debating that point instead of looking for creative solutions.

Oh well. It is what it is at this point.

 

[jmurrayhead]

I didn’t think we were close to a point where we could even discuss what it could look like. I’d want the devs involved in those discussions. Most of the discussion was a debate about whether the dev team should even consider it, which is disappointing that so much energy was wasted on debating that point instead of looking for creative solutions.

Oh well. It is what it is at this point.

Honestly, they need a business analyst or have their new project manager more engaged with their customers to go over things like this.