California Case Update

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Reality hasn't stopped them so far. This is personal for them. You watch, I would almost bet they will appeal if they're ruled against in January.

Which really wouldn't be so bad. In order to appeal a civil judgement, you usually have to deposit the amount of your penalties & damages first (prevents people from using frivolous appeals to avoid coughing up the $$$). If that happens, KAM will see IB's funds starting to move towards their own bank accounts. :D

I seriously doubt IB will appeal. At some point they will need to turn tail & run like the bullies & cowards that are, and that moment is coming.
 
I have written before (at length) about the possibility of a US Court ordering "innocent" buyers (and, I also addressed that knowledge of a potential claim would not make the buyer not "innocent) to surrender their copies of purchased software. I don't have time to hunt up the post, but if you are interested, search my posts. Essentially, under case law in the US (and a recent Ninth Circuit case, which is where this case is being heard), there is no legal basis for having the software impounded.

As for appeals by IB should they lose, I think the possibility is remote. Something could happen later in this case, especially at trial, that could change this. However, so far, I don't see much that could be appealed.

As for IB trying to file another suit in Federal Court on some other basis, unlikely that this would happen or work. They would have to notify the court of "related suit" (the current case), and it is likely it would be assigned back to Judge Real (though, I am not familiar with local or Circuit rules on case assignment, so this may be different). Judges generally don't take kindly to that tactic. (And there may be Rule 11 issues in such an event- basically the lawyer getting into trouble and the client having to pay, potentially, for frivolous suit or making assertions not warranted by law or facts known...you might ask why that is not an issue in the current case. It could be, but, they are not apparent at the moment. It would take a lot to explain why this is so in the current case, but after facts found and a verdict against them, the issues are much more viable). In any event, they will likely have issues with not having raised claims in this case that they could have and will likely be precluded from re-litigating the issues that are related to the present claims. For a ton of reasons,this is just not likely to happen.
 
Thing many of you missing is , none of you can hope IB to loose like me and other participants in the case. I also believe they will loose.

I am just stating the legal facts about licenses if in any condition IB gets ownership of the license.
 
Mert,

That's what I am saying- under the law of the circuit, they can't be awarded the licenses people bought before. It can't happen the way you hypothesized.
 
I've re read about 3/4 of this thread to refresh my memory and will finish it tomorow.
. Last April there was statements about IB making changes to their allegations about Mike as a defendant.
But I couldn't find what these changes were.
Can anyone give me the link or tell me what this was about?
 
Very true. Though it's worth noting that IB has asked the court for exactly that. They want the court to award them ownership of XF. But as you said, that's basically not going to happen, especially when IB's expert witness testified that there is no stolen code.

I get the feeling they would only want to take possession so they could take it off of the market, not use it. Based on how vB5 looks though, I could safely say that vb has gone off in a completely different direction from where XF has gone. They'd have no use for the product as-is.

I read Kier's statement that they coded XF using agile development methods, meaning it is deployed quickly in smaller but fully functional pieces, vs. one large product requiring completion of several core parts. And not only that, they made use of existing frameworks to build XF around, so they did not have to reinvent the wheel and code the entire project from the ground up. So that supports the fact that XF was built quickly, well after Kier and Mike left ib. So, ib cannot claim that XF was developed while they were on ib's payroll. And the case gets more flimsy... ;)
 
It would not surprise me that IB drop this just before the trial. No out of court settlement, as there is nothing to settle. They will simply want to wipe their hands clean and not allow XF the ability to claim costs, thus their aim is achieved by hindering the startup. They know they have no evidence... so court will be futile for them, as their own negligence will be shown and possibly court costs for XF assigned for IB to pay. Therefore it is in IB's favour to drop it just prior to trial.

Maybe we should delete this post, and not give ib any ideas... ;)

I don't know if XF can reclaim costs after the case is dropped--good point. But for them to countersue to reclaim their costs would cost XF even more in legal fees. So they are over a barrel either way if that happens.

Too bad someone can't start a Kickstarter project to raise some $$ for a legal defense fund...to help kickstart XF back into development.
 
I do wish people would read back on this thread for at least 4 - 5 pages before posting in alarms and warnings. Repeatedly trying to say there are dangers that have actually been thoroughly covered several times over during the last two years is lazy and thoughtless.

To the best of my knowledge - and I've just re read almost ALL this thread:

1. The current charges in the very worst case if an awful lot goes really weirdly wrong only mean money to pay by Xenforo as a fine.
There is no scenario where the XF code will be given to IB, nor can buyers who already use it be stopped from using it.
The worst case (a fine) is extremely unlikely.

2. Several very good analysts have gone over the information and shown that the IB case is flimsy to the point of being laughable. They have made many huge mistakes in what they have stated, contradicted themselves, claimed very obvious untruths; and made impossible claims such as standard forum/SN functions like alerts being copyright to them.
Their original big claim that XF copied VB code was contradicted by their own expert! Witnesses they have tried to produce have failed to make statements.

3. Appeals can only be made if the court procedure messes up on a technicality. So far everything has been done very very carefully by both XF and the court staff to ensure that is not an option.

4. There is another court case waiting in the UK but there are different procedures here that do not permit a court case to get going unless it has good evidence. If IB do manage to scarpe up just enough stuff to open a case it would be great for XF. The UK system is much faster and would award big costs to XF. Shame it's unlikely to happen!

5. This is all because the IB aim is not to win but to throw away money on causing mega stress for the small but skilled XF team. Ib have messed up their product, lost money, lost clients, lost status. They need to blame someone.
They have been successful in causing uproar and stress done but their ultimate aim to make XF collapse has not happened. The XF team (KAM), their lawyers and the community has beaten them over and over again by being strong. XF has won almost every round in the court case duel so far. The code is healthy and stable with plenty of addons. All IB has done is slow XF down, cause distress to the KAM team - and create massess of publicity for XF.

6. As we slowly move to January and the court date the main issue is the the KAM team is very tired.
They sensibly decided to suspend new development (high level coding when exhausted means bad code and these guys are perfectionists). That's not so bad because the code as it is, is so strong and usable.
But the team is really really tired with personal problems being intensified by all the strain. They need to switch off and take time out from us right now.
After a period of retreat will they feel able to pick up on XF again? Hard to say. Possibly not. Burnout is burnout and once it goes bone deep you can't flog yourself to do the job any more. On balance though if they are sensible, and stay away like they need to as they are doing, I think they have a good chance of renewed interest and commitment. Staying away is therefore the BEST thing they could possibly do right now! They're not needed for a bit because there are excellent mods to hold the community. Time to rest.

7. Either they return (likely) or they help the community move into a new stage without them (less likely but quite manageable). Certainly if they don't feel up to being the centre any more I think their integrity, well known over many years, will see them helping with a good efficient transition.

To be the most supportive we can be let's respect their urgent need of privacy and rest. That's what will bring them back with their characteristic coding sparkle.
 
This is all because the IB aim is not to win but to throw away money on causing mega stress for the small but skilled XF team. Ib have messed up their product, lost money, lost clients, lost status. They need to blame someone.
The blame should've fell on Brisco's shoulders. His planning was bad in many levels. If I were in Brisco's shoes, I would have done things differently...

I said this in another thread:
1. Buy Jelsoft company/vBulletin brand with intention of keeping the previous staffers. Because if the previous staff did a great job with the product, why push them out? Just no point. I bought the company, I want my money to work to my advantage. I bought the brand, I want my brand to reflect good on me, not against me.

2. Keep the team the way it is. Offer incentives to staff that has been there through and through - to keep them working there. Once again: I want my money to work to my advantage. If I wanted vB4 to be well coded, I would treat these guys with much respect enough to keep them working until completion. If I see they do a great job under my control... I keep them.

3. Do not argue with the developer if they say a complete re-write is required in order for vB4 to succeed. In fact, I wouldn't be against this. If my staff has a problem with it, you're fired. Out. I don't care. I'm not going to tell my lead developer "no" to a complete re-write.
Internet Brands lost money, lost clients, and lost status because, they did not do things efficiently to grow vBulletin exponentially.
They have been successful in causing uproar and stress done but their ultimate aim to make XF collapse has not happened. The XF team (KAM), their lawyers and the community has beaten them over and over again by being strong. XF has won almost every round in the court case duel so far. The code is healthy and stable with plenty of addons. All IB has done is slow XF down, cause distress to the KAM team - and create massess of publicity for XF.
The publicity is more or less a bad thing for xenForo - with this lawsuit. It just tells potential customers that "vBulletin is the market leader in forum software. If you go to xenForo, you will lose money." Which isn't the truth, now is it?
 
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The blame should've fell on Brisco's shoulders. His planning was bad in many levels. If I were in Brisco's shoes, I would have done things differently...

I said this in another thread:

Internet Brands lost money, lost clients, and lost status because, they did not do things efficiently to grow vBulletin exponentially.

It's not all Brisco's fault though. The previous owner of Jelsoft had lied to them about the development of vBulletin 4 and where it stood. Brisco made an investment in to the product thinking it was going to have dividends instantly. Needless to say that wasn't the case, and vB 4 wasn't any where near ready when IB finalized the purchase of Jelsoft.

It his/IB's fault for not taking corrective measures toward getting vB 4 ready, instead they let Jelsoft continue to operate as it were for a year or longer before stepping in to find progress on vB4 wasn't acceptable.
 
It's not all Brisco's fault though. The previous owner of Jelsoft had lied to them about the development of vBulletin 4 and where it stood. Brisco made an investment in to the product thinking it was going to have dividends instantly. Needless to say that wasn't the case, and vB 4 wasn't any where near ready when IB finalized the purchase of Jelsoft.
How would John Pervical lie to Internet Brands about development of vB4? I mean, wasn't vB4 in development at the time of acquisition? I remember Kier teasing that vB4 is in development. And he was one of the lead developers of vB4. It was there.

Even if it weren't ready, I would have just bought it, and then allow Kier the creative freedom to code it to completion. Brisco and Kier argued over a re-write of vB4. I wouldn't have argued with him. I would have kept my mouth shut and let the man do the job.
It his/IB's fault for not taking corrective measures toward getting vB 4 ready, instead they let Jelsoft continue to operate as it were for a year or longer before stepping in to find progress on vB4 wasn't acceptable.
Jelsoft was left alone to operate as it was? Huh? I thought Internet Brands took over and just outright transferred assets from Jelsoft to the new vBSI?

If it was ran by itself as it was, I don't think it would have gone the way it has currently.
 
How would John Pervical lie to Internet Brands about development of vB4? I mean, wasn't vB4 in development at the time of acquisition? I remember Kier teasing that vB4 is in development. And he was one of the lead developers of vB4. It was there.

Even if it weren't ready, I would have just bought it, and then allow Kier the creative freedom to code it to completion. Brisco and Kier argued over a re-write of vB4. I wouldn't have argued with him. I would have kept my mouth shut and let the man do the job.

Jelsoft was left alone to operate as it was? Huh? I thought Internet Brands took over and just outright transferred assets from Jelsoft to the new vBSI?

If it was ran by itself as it was, I don't think it would have gone the way it has currently.

It's in the court documents directly from Kier, that vBulletin 4 development was stopped to work on squeezing more life out of vBulletin 3.x and adding social networking features.
 
How would John Pervical lie to Internet Brands about development of vB4?

According to Kier's deposition it was James, not John:

http://shamil.co.uk/pdf/vbsi-xfl/80-1.pdf

20. In late June 2008, Internet Brands’ CEO Robert Brisco, Technology Director Jennifer Rundell, and Project Manager Michael Anders visited Jelsoft’s offices in England on short notice. The Saturday before Internet Brands’ visit on the following Monday, James Limm sent me an email instructing me to prepare a presentation about the development of vBulletin 4. vBulletin 4, however, was not being developed at that time, because the development team had been diverted by Limm to develop and write the social networking features that would debut in vBulletin 3.7.

21. I was present at and participated in meetings with Internet Brands at the Pangbourne office over three days in June 2008. During the first of these meetings, I discovered that Internet Brands’ corporate representatives believed that Jelsoft had been working on vBulletin 4 since at least 2007. Brisco expressed shock when I told him that we had been working on upgrades to the vBulletin 3 series, that we were just starting to plan the development of vBulletin 4, and that vBulletin 4 was two years away from commercial release.

22. I have since learned that Brisco has testified that, prior to June 2008, Limm had assured him on a regular basis that Jelsoft was working on vBulletin 4 and that progress was good. Contrary to Limm’s assurances to Brisco, vBulletin 4 had only reached its early planning stages, with functional requirements still being defined. With the exception of the decision to make use of MVC and semantic XHTML principles, no technical design or development work for vBulletin 4 had been undertaken at all.
 
As for appeals by IB should they lose, I think the possibility is remote. Something could happen later in this case, especially at trial, that could change this. However, so far, I don't see much that could be appealed.
You certainly are more knowledgeable in these things than I. I do hope your sense of these scenarios turns out to be the absolute way they play out in January. Nothing would make me happier than to see IB lose this in a big way.
 
I have been reading patiently through all the earlier messages on this thread. The possibility of IB acquiring the ownership of XF was already raised, discussed and dismissed. For two reasons. That could only happen if XF was coded by IB employees (Kier and Mike) while under contract to IB; which is an accusation which does not hold, and IB pretty much dropped it quite early on. Secondly the judge decides who gets what on the basis of the judgement. Apparently it is pretty much unheard of to award ownership of the disputed product to the complainant. The worst that can happen if IB win is a fine for XF to pay.

However as I read the details over again it is again clear as it was when I read them before that IB do not have a winnable case.
That was never the aim. The aim was to drain time and energy from XF as a startup competitor company.
To an extent that has happened as XF is not currently being developed further. But it has still survived the two year drain of the court case to be a vigorous and successful forum script.

If the developers can come through their current exhaustion and the personal crises it has caused XF will go on next year from strength to strength. I think they can do that. They just need some retreat time right now and the period between now and the end of the year is just the right length of time to retreat and recover (ex-therapist talking here). By December they should be able to perk up.

If they don't there are alternative avenues for XF to take so it keeps going, which have been mentioned. So XF future is to be either a KAM project or not. But XF itself will continue.
AMEN
 
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