jasetaro
Well-known member
What she said.
California Case Update
- Thread starter Shamil
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What she said.
Which really wouldn't be so bad. In order to appeal a civil judgement, you usually have to deposit the amount of your penalties & damages first (prevents people from using frivolous appeals to avoid coughing up the $$$). If that happens, KAM will see IB's funds starting to move towards their own bank accounts.
I seriously doubt IB will appeal. At some point they will need to turn tail & run like the bullies & cowards that are, and that moment is coming.
jadmperry
Well-known member
I have written before (at length) about the possibility of a US Court ordering "innocent" buyers (and, I also addressed that knowledge of a potential claim would not make the buyer not "innocent) to surrender their copies of purchased software. I don't have time to hunt up the post, but if you are interested, search my posts. Essentially, under case law in the US (and a recent Ninth Circuit case, which is where this case is being heard), there is no legal basis for having the software impounded.
As for appeals by IB should they lose, I think the possibility is remote. Something could happen later in this case, especially at trial, that could change this. However, so far, I don't see much that could be appealed.
As for IB trying to file another suit in Federal Court on some other basis, unlikely that this would happen or work. They would have to notify the court of "related suit" (the current case), and it is likely it would be assigned back to Judge Real (though, I am not familiar with local or Circuit rules on case assignment, so this may be different). Judges generally don't take kindly to that tactic. (And there may be Rule 11 issues in such an event- basically the lawyer getting into trouble and the client having to pay, potentially, for frivolous suit or making assertions not warranted by law or facts known...you might ask why that is not an issue in the current case. It could be, but, they are not apparent at the moment. It would take a lot to explain why this is so in the current case, but after facts found and a verdict against them, the issues are much more viable). In any event, they will likely have issues with not having raised claims in this case that they could have and will likely be precluded from re-litigating the issues that are related to the present claims. For a ton of reasons,this is just not likely to happen.
As for appeals by IB should they lose, I think the possibility is remote. Something could happen later in this case, especially at trial, that could change this. However, so far, I don't see much that could be appealed.
As for IB trying to file another suit in Federal Court on some other basis, unlikely that this would happen or work. They would have to notify the court of "related suit" (the current case), and it is likely it would be assigned back to Judge Real (though, I am not familiar with local or Circuit rules on case assignment, so this may be different). Judges generally don't take kindly to that tactic. (And there may be Rule 11 issues in such an event- basically the lawyer getting into trouble and the client having to pay, potentially, for frivolous suit or making assertions not warranted by law or facts known...you might ask why that is not an issue in the current case. It could be, but, they are not apparent at the moment. It would take a lot to explain why this is so in the current case, but after facts found and a verdict against them, the issues are much more viable). In any event, they will likely have issues with not having raised claims in this case that they could have and will likely be precluded from re-litigating the issues that are related to the present claims. For a ton of reasons,this is just not likely to happen.
Anthony Parsons
Well-known member
January will reveal all.
Morgain
Well-known member
I've re read about 3/4 of this thread to refresh my memory and will finish it tomorow.
. Last April there was statements about IB making changes to their allegations about Mike as a defendant.
But I couldn't find what these changes were.
Can anyone give me the link or tell me what this was about?
. Last April there was statements about IB making changes to their allegations about Mike as a defendant.
But I couldn't find what these changes were.
Can anyone give me the link or tell me what this was about?
Wildcat Media
Well-known member
I get the feeling they would only want to take possession so they could take it off of the market, not use it. Based on how vB5 looks though, I could safely say that vb has gone off in a completely different direction from where XF has gone. They'd have no use for the product as-is.
I read Kier's statement that they coded XF using agile development methods, meaning it is deployed quickly in smaller but fully functional pieces, vs. one large product requiring completion of several core parts. And not only that, they made use of existing frameworks to build XF around, so they did not have to reinvent the wheel and code the entire project from the ground up. So that supports the fact that XF was built quickly, well after Kier and Mike left ib. So, ib cannot claim that XF was developed while they were on ib's payroll. And the case gets more flimsy...
Wildcat Media
Well-known member
Maybe we should delete this post, and not give ib any ideas...
I don't know if XF can reclaim costs after the case is dropped--good point. But for them to countersue to reclaim their costs would cost XF even more in legal fees. So they are over a barrel either way if that happens.
Too bad someone can't start a Kickstarter project to raise some $$ for a legal defense fund...to help kickstart XF back into development.
Morgain
Well-known member
I do wish people would read back on this thread for at least 4 - 5 pages before posting in alarms and warnings. Repeatedly trying to say there are dangers that have actually been thoroughly covered several times over during the last two years is lazy and thoughtless.
To the best of my knowledge - and I've just re read almost ALL this thread:
1. The current charges in the very worst case if an awful lot goes really weirdly wrong only mean money to pay by Xenforo as a fine.
There is no scenario where the XF code will be given to IB, nor can buyers who already use it be stopped from using it.
The worst case (a fine) is extremely unlikely.
2. Several very good analysts have gone over the information and shown that the IB case is flimsy to the point of being laughable. They have made many huge mistakes in what they have stated, contradicted themselves, claimed very obvious untruths; and made impossible claims such as standard forum/SN functions like alerts being copyright to them.
Their original big claim that XF copied VB code was contradicted by their own expert! Witnesses they have tried to produce have failed to make statements.
3. Appeals can only be made if the court procedure messes up on a technicality. So far everything has been done very very carefully by both XF and the court staff to ensure that is not an option.
4. There is another court case waiting in the UK but there are different procedures here that do not permit a court case to get going unless it has good evidence. If IB do manage to scarpe up just enough stuff to open a case it would be great for XF. The UK system is much faster and would award big costs to XF. Shame it's unlikely to happen!
5. This is all because the IB aim is not to win but to throw away money on causing mega stress for the small but skilled XF team. Ib have messed up their product, lost money, lost clients, lost status. They need to blame someone.
They have been successful in causing uproar and stress done but their ultimate aim to make XF collapse has not happened. The XF team (KAM), their lawyers and the community has beaten them over and over again by being strong. XF has won almost every round in the court case duel so far. The code is healthy and stable with plenty of addons. All IB has done is slow XF down, cause distress to the KAM team - and create massess of publicity for XF.
6. As we slowly move to January and the court date the main issue is the the KAM team is very tired.
They sensibly decided to suspend new development (high level coding when exhausted means bad code and these guys are perfectionists). That's not so bad because the code as it is, is so strong and usable.
But the team is really really tired with personal problems being intensified by all the strain. They need to switch off and take time out from us right now.
After a period of retreat will they feel able to pick up on XF again? Hard to say. Possibly not. Burnout is burnout and once it goes bone deep you can't flog yourself to do the job any more. On balance though if they are sensible, and stay away like they need to as they are doing, I think they have a good chance of renewed interest and commitment. Staying away is therefore the BEST thing they could possibly do right now! They're not needed for a bit because there are excellent mods to hold the community. Time to rest.
7. Either they return (likely) or they help the community move into a new stage without them (less likely but quite manageable). Certainly if they don't feel up to being the centre any more I think their integrity, well known over many years, will see them helping with a good efficient transition.
To be the most supportive we can be let's respect their urgent need of privacy and rest. That's what will bring them back with their characteristic coding sparkle.
To the best of my knowledge - and I've just re read almost ALL this thread:
1. The current charges in the very worst case if an awful lot goes really weirdly wrong only mean money to pay by Xenforo as a fine.
There is no scenario where the XF code will be given to IB, nor can buyers who already use it be stopped from using it.
The worst case (a fine) is extremely unlikely.
2. Several very good analysts have gone over the information and shown that the IB case is flimsy to the point of being laughable. They have made many huge mistakes in what they have stated, contradicted themselves, claimed very obvious untruths; and made impossible claims such as standard forum/SN functions like alerts being copyright to them.
Their original big claim that XF copied VB code was contradicted by their own expert! Witnesses they have tried to produce have failed to make statements.
3. Appeals can only be made if the court procedure messes up on a technicality. So far everything has been done very very carefully by both XF and the court staff to ensure that is not an option.
4. There is another court case waiting in the UK but there are different procedures here that do not permit a court case to get going unless it has good evidence. If IB do manage to scarpe up just enough stuff to open a case it would be great for XF. The UK system is much faster and would award big costs to XF. Shame it's unlikely to happen!
5. This is all because the IB aim is not to win but to throw away money on causing mega stress for the small but skilled XF team. Ib have messed up their product, lost money, lost clients, lost status. They need to blame someone.
They have been successful in causing uproar and stress done but their ultimate aim to make XF collapse has not happened. The XF team (KAM), their lawyers and the community has beaten them over and over again by being strong. XF has won almost every round in the court case duel so far. The code is healthy and stable with plenty of addons. All IB has done is slow XF down, cause distress to the KAM team - and create massess of publicity for XF.
6. As we slowly move to January and the court date the main issue is the the KAM team is very tired.
They sensibly decided to suspend new development (high level coding when exhausted means bad code and these guys are perfectionists). That's not so bad because the code as it is, is so strong and usable.
But the team is really really tired with personal problems being intensified by all the strain. They need to switch off and take time out from us right now.
After a period of retreat will they feel able to pick up on XF again? Hard to say. Possibly not. Burnout is burnout and once it goes bone deep you can't flog yourself to do the job any more. On balance though if they are sensible, and stay away like they need to as they are doing, I think they have a good chance of renewed interest and commitment. Staying away is therefore the BEST thing they could possibly do right now! They're not needed for a bit because there are excellent mods to hold the community. Time to rest.
7. Either they return (likely) or they help the community move into a new stage without them (less likely but quite manageable). Certainly if they don't feel up to being the centre any more I think their integrity, well known over many years, will see them helping with a good efficient transition.
To be the most supportive we can be let's respect their urgent need of privacy and rest. That's what will bring them back with their characteristic coding sparkle.
Carlos
Well-known member
The blame should've fell on Brisco's shoulders. His planning was bad in many levels. If I were in Brisco's shoes, I would have done things differently...
I said this in another thread:
Internet Brands lost money, lost clients, and lost status because, they did not do things efficiently to grow vBulletin exponentially.
The publicity is more or less a bad thing for xenForo - with this lawsuit. It just tells potential customers that "vBulletin is the market leader in forum software. If you go to xenForo, you will lose money." Which isn't the truth, now is it?
David_
Active member
It's not all Brisco's fault though. The previous owner of Jelsoft had lied to them about the development of vBulletin 4 and where it stood. Brisco made an investment in to the product thinking it was going to have dividends instantly. Needless to say that wasn't the case, and vB 4 wasn't any where near ready when IB finalized the purchase of Jelsoft.
It his/IB's fault for not taking corrective measures toward getting vB 4 ready, instead they let Jelsoft continue to operate as it were for a year or longer before stepping in to find progress on vB4 wasn't acceptable.
Carlos
Well-known member
How would John Pervical lie to Internet Brands about development of vB4? I mean, wasn't vB4 in development at the time of acquisition? I remember Kier teasing that vB4 is in development. And he was one of the lead developers of vB4. It was there.
Even if it weren't ready, I would have just bought it, and then allow Kier the creative freedom to code it to completion. Brisco and Kier argued over a re-write of vB4. I wouldn't have argued with him. I would have kept my mouth shut and let the man do the job.
Jelsoft was left alone to operate as it was? Huh? I thought Internet Brands took over and just outright transferred assets from Jelsoft to the new vBSI?
If it was ran by itself as it was, I don't think it would have gone the way it has currently.
David_
Active member
It's in the court documents directly from Kier, that vBulletin 4 development was stopped to work on squeezing more life out of vBulletin 3.x and adding social networking features.
Jake Bunce
Well-known member
John
Well-known member
You certainly are more knowledgeable in these things than I. I do hope your sense of these scenarios turns out to be the absolute way they play out in January. Nothing would make me happier than to see IB lose this in a big way.
DRE
Well-known member
AMEN
Nasr
Well-known member
A not for profit project.
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