Audent.io

[sbj]

In my opinion the core problem is not the addon prices or the support of those addons. No matter if you charge 10 $ for an addon or 100 $ addon.

You are supposed to get the money by selling a bulk of that. THAT's how you are supposed to make profit. See it like app transactions. All the apps charge small amount of money like cents or couple of dollars yet they make a ton of money. Because there is a huge userbase.

So the core problem is the shrinking userbase on XF. This forum was filled with people in 2010-2013 and it declined so much. Now in 2021 I see the same 30 users every day. Where are all the people? What did XF do to prevent this? I think more than before all old vB forums switch over to XF yet we don't see much activity on here. Why? I see a dead resources section for 1-2 years now. Same couple of devs releasing some stuff and even them don't do that anymore. And now TH semi-leaves, too. XF just doesn't care enough. You all could charge 300 $ for an addon, and it will make no difference. There are not enough people to buy stuff. But we keep ignoring this. No enthusiasm from XF, no progress, no new campaigns, no ads. I want that XF thrives more and more yet it is the opposite. I was excited to see Audentio and XF corporating together, thought maybe we'll get some faster and cool progress, yet we see them going away from XF. If this is not concerning, that your biggest 3rd-party vendor is leaving XF, what is? But yeah, the migration business is blooming...

 

[Deleted member 232995]

Why? Do they know something about Xenforo that we don't know? Then there is no new versions being announced from Xenforo. It's kind of scary. Are people going to start to bail from Xenforo now in a mass exodus like the Vbulletin days? Someone hold me.

I think it's normal economic considerations and also the fact that forums in general are losing importance. I don't think XF is at the end
and if it does, maybe it will be free and it will be continued in a group

 

[mattrogowski]

What scares me is... why now? Like some other members commented on, Themehouse was doing videos with Xenforo and deeply rooted in the Xenforo ecosystem. They just release their new 'ACE' theme and addons. They were doing big skins for some major forums out there. Then out of the blue, they drop everything. Why? Do they know something about Xenforo that we don't know? Then there is no new versions being announced from Xenforo. It's kind of scary. Are people going to start to bail from Xenforo now in a mass exodus like the Vbulletin days? Someone hold me.

We're moving away from posting on these forums and having our resources here, not leaving the software altogether. Some highlights of Mike's previous post:

We are reducing offering 30 addons and themes to offering 1 package, so we're still here but in a MUCH smaller capacity for a much smaller group who rely on us. We just cannot sell licenses to the public anymore. Pretty much that simple just due to the market not looking for it anymore.

We slimmed down our list to offer a better service to our clients. By the way we have another 20 addons that are private, we dont even post about them here, and that decision has been one of the best I ever made. People who reach out and want to work with us to grow their forum is just easier for us than fighting the mobs day in day out. This forum is what I'm leaving behind, all resources except for free ones are being left. If XF decides to delete them fine by me, we left them to help you all out.

XenForo software is NOT the same as XenForo the forums. We're just not going to post here anymore, those who need anything can reach out. We know this software QUITE well after ten years using it. I love the software, I just want a smaller role to play.

 

[Mendalla]

This is not a reasonable argument. Every charitable organisation can only tackle the things that it can financially support. If they have no money they can't do anything! If you don't have money to buy bread, you don't expect them to give it to you for free! I think it's good that things are given and received for free. But this should not be an expectation and a basis.


And if you think you are running a forum, you have to make compromises. If I buy a car and want to have extensions, I don't expect them to be free. WHY is this different in the software sector?

I was not making any kind of argument on your position. I was just pointing out that if he is going to to do such a survey, he has to include all possible scenarios. I find the small community run on goodwill donations tends to get ignored when people do things like that. There's an assumption that forums are all run by some kind of corporate entity, or have revenue driven by ads or subscriptions (or both). That's not my reality and I am pretty sure that I am not unique in that regard.

In fact, I do NOT expect things for free nor I was suggesting that I did. I work in IT in my day job. I expect to pay for my software or to pay for the effort needed to make it work if I go with open source. My site is lucky that they have an experienced IT guy who is willing to use those skills for free on their behalf.

And some more detail on our site: We are not a formal charitable organization. We are just a group of people who wanted to keep our community going after the original owner backed out. We have no external sources of support or revenue, just people voluntarily picking up bills here and there. We use one paid add-on (which was a one-time payment with no support beyond the discussion of it on here) and a few free ones. If a paid add-on did something we needed and was the only option, we would pay for it. But when I am looking for add-ons, I am obviously going to favour free ones over paid if they do the same job.

 

[Digital Doctor]

But yeah, the migration business is blooming.

Xenforo is slowly dying, but all the other forum companies are dead

 

[Deleted member 232995]

XF just doesn't care enough.

I agree with you 100% here!

The fact that there are fewer manufacturers here is certainly not only due to one thing. Everything plays into it. But yes, I agree with you here too. A lot has happened here in recent years that is not good for the community. The disappearance of good manufacturers is certainly one of the biggest problems.

Xenforo is slowly dying, but all the other forum companies are dead

Sadly

 

[imno007]

Probably somewhat depends on the Add-on - there are dozens of really simple Add-ons (+- just template modifications), but you are right - anything that is somewhat more complex than this does take time.

I think many customers vastly underestimate the resources required to develop and maintain Add-ons and at the same time vastly overestimate market opportunities.

IMHO 20 $ average is way too cheap to propely fund development and maintenance but also too expensive for many forums that do not generate much income.

Just a little bit of math using one of my Add-ons as an example:
FAM is a hobby/fun project I've been working on for well over 2 years by now.
I didn't track time precisely, but I expect that it already took well over 60 hours to get it to the current state.

If I did this for a living, this time would have to be paid for.

The average gross income in Germany in 2020 was about 3.975 €/month, adding about 30% non-wage labor costs that amounts for a total of about 5.170 €/month.

Now let's say I'm working about 200 hours/month (which seems realistic for a freelancer/self-employed) => about 25 €/hour.

At this rate, the Add-on would be worth ~ 1500 €.
To cover those costs (and that does not even include costs for billig, licensed customer support, etc.) at least 75 licenses would be needed.

That might not sound too much, but from my experience it is though - I'd expect most paid Add-ons to have < 100 buyers.

I think neither (much) higher nor lower priced Add-ons would be a solution - there just isn't a viable market.

Just my 0.02 €

Well, you're making some generalizations here, of course, as you yourself have acknowledged. Everything depends on the addon and how much work is involved. I would say that your "$20 average is too cheap" assertion is maybe only true if the addon is actually fairly complex and requires a lot of maintenance, say for certain payment addon's, for example, that have to be often updated to be compliant with the various payment services on top of XF updates. But if the primary upkeep for a single addon is updating for XF upgrades and the occasional bug-fix? That's not a full-time job, or even a part-time one, so I'm not sure your job/average income analogy really works. Now, if the developer is maintaining a hundred addon's, sure, that maybe adds up to a lot time and labor, but as a buyer purchasing one or two addon's, I might not feel it's fair that I pay a lot more for those one or two addon's I personally buy to help recoup some of the developer's total costs for keeping his hundred addon's updated.

Maybe part of the lesson here is don't get into this to get rich (and I know the TH team didn't, so no one has to point that out to me), and don't over-extend yourself? If you're a solo developer, or part of a very small team, and you have dozens or even hundreds of addon's to maintain, surely you're going to eventually have cause to regret it...?

Personally, I love buying addon's from people like Xon and XDinc (XTR) because I know they use the addon's themselves for their own personal projects and would be developing them, or at least most of them, regardless of the profit motive.

 

[Dad.]

While I appreciate the discussion around pricing of add-ons, it really isn't worth debating that timeless argument. It wasn't sustainable, we are trimming it down. Move that discussion elsewhere as we aren't the authority on what should be priced what for everyones happiness. Feeds and UI.X and our WordPress bridge and Donate and all kinds of products will be free to use. The "I don't mind paying" argument is false because as many have calculated, proper support at the current price ranges you'd expect and current market size of XenForo are simply illogical despite certain people claiming it's the business model at fault. We've been donating development time forever, and I really wasn't feeling the love in return or the value in return so our team decided it was best to invest that time elsewhere.

To get back on topic, if anyone that is a paying customer, supporter, colleague, that has concerns about their licenses or anything at all, you are most welcome to setup a call or talk over email. Our goal is to pretty much not disrupt anyone with this. I'm fairly certain that is going to be attainable for the vast majority of our clients.

 

[Faust]

@Mike Creuzer , what's the situation on UIX style? Are they still supported or its just dead-end? As I'm using TH style.

 

[AndrewSimm]

While I appreciate the discussion around pricing of add-ons, it really isn't worth debating that timeless argument. It wasn't sustainable, we are trimming it down. Move that discussion elsewhere as we aren't the authority on what should be priced what for everyones happiness. Feeds and UI.X and our WordPress bridge and Donate and all kinds of products will be free to use. The "I don't mind paying" argument is false because as many have calculated, proper support at the current price ranges you'd expect and current market size of XenForo are simply illogical despite certain people claiming it's the business model at fault. We've been donating development time forever, and I really wasn't feeling the love in return or the value in return so our team decided it was best to invest that time elsewhere.

To get back on topic, if anyone that is a paying customer, supporter, colleague, that has concerns about their licenses or anything at all, you are most welcome to setup a call or talk over email. Our goal is to pretty much not disrupt anyone with this. I'm fairly certain that is going to be attainable for the vast majority of our clients.

Phrases like "it really isn't worth debating" and "Move that discussion elsewhere" aren't very appropriate for a company that made its money selling forum add-ons. The purpose of forums are to have discussions and share opinions, facts, or whatever. People questioning your business model is exactly what you would expect on a message board. It's up to you whether you want to partake in a discussion on your business model. Remember if people are talking about you then you are relevant.

 

[AndrewSimm]

Xenforo is slowly dying, but all the other forum companies are dead

How do you know that? It's interesting that Xenforo would add to its staff if their business was contracting.

 

[Chris D]

The business is not contracting.

 

[Dad.]

@Mike Creuzer , what's the situation on UIX style? Are they still supported or its just dead-end? As I'm using TH style.

Will be supported, if you check the the announcement we posted should cover all the changes. If you bought anything you would ll continue to get updates, dedicated support not guaranteed depending on the situation or unless you pay for the support time. Our support team is made of engineers, not "level 2 tech support".

 

[Faust]

Will be supported, if you check the the announcement we posted should cover all the changes. If you bought anything you would ll continue to get updates, dedicated support not guaranteed depending on the situation or unless you pay for the support time. Our support team is made of engineers, not "level 2 tech support".

How about if my license is expired. Means I can't renew it again?

 

[Dad.]

How about if my license is expired. Means I can't renew it again?

Well, if youre asking about a free product there is nothing to renew. If its an existing addon that we no longer sell anymore or it moved to a our Resources subscription, then that is the answer there. We simply do not sell one-time annual licenses anymore for updates and support. Only the 1 subscription.

If the cost is high for anyone, I highly recommend that you talk with us about your situation and see if we can work something out. We spent multiple years building the addons and really based on the market size, the price is what it simply has to be. Yes we understand only a handful of communities will buy it who need it, and thats just what we have to do.

 

[Faust]

Well, if youre asking about a free product there is nothing to renew. If its an existing addon that we no longer sell anymore or it moved to a our Resources subscription, then that is the answer there. We simply do not sell one-time annual licenses anymore for updates and support. Only the 1 subscription.

If the cost is high for anyone, I highly recommend that you talk with us about your situation and see if we can work something out. We spent multiple years building the addons and really based on the market size, the price is what it simply has to be. Yes we understand only a handful of communities will buy it who need it, and thats just what we have to do.

I wasn't be able to find the subscription prices on your website at this time.

 

[Dad.]

I wasn't be able to find the subscription prices on your website at this time.

I think we'll post more info on themehouse.com at some point, but we're consolidating our websites into one. You can view information on our services for communities here and specifically Resources here.

 

[Faust]

I think we'll post more info on themehouse.com at some point, but we're consolidating our websites into one. You can view information on our services for communities here and specifically Resources here.

I've sent an email from there.

 

[RobParker]

Well, if youre asking about a free product there is nothing to renew. If its an existing addon that we no longer sell anymore or it moved to a our Resources subscription, then that is the answer there. We simply do not sell one-time annual licenses anymore for updates and support. Only the 1 subscription.

If the cost is high for anyone, I highly recommend that you talk with us about your situation and see if we can work something out. We spent multiple years building the addons and really based on the market size, the price is what it simply has to be. Yes we understand only a handful of communities will buy it who need it, and thats just what we have to do.

Just wanted to triple check as a few pages back, you said that:

Also, in case anyone is curious, we've decided to give lifetime access if you bought anything that is moving to our main subscription. Not lifetime support to be clear. Support will be "as available", so if you have an issue you need us to look into we will log it into our tracker but if you need us to do further work we will charge for that or ask you buy the subscription.

Hope this helps, something we should have done from the launch. Those products that you should keep getting updates to (but will have limited or no support, create a ticket if youre unsure) are:

• Ignore More
• Image Optimizer
• Monetize
• Reactions Plus
• Style Switch
• Spotify
• Trending
• XPress

So if we have/had an existing license, I took that to mean that we'll have lifetime access to updates? That seems to contradict a little bit your reply above which suggests the subscription is the solution to anyone looking to renew those addons.

 

[Dad.]

Just wanted to triple check as a few pages back, you said that:



So if we have/had an existing license, I took that to mean that we'll have lifetime access to updates? That seems to contradict a little bit your reply above which suggests the subscription is the solution to anyone looking to renew those addons.

There are two distinctions that the license permitted: updates to code and access to our support team for one year.

You will continue to get access to code, so long as we are updating it, but support will no longer offered since we aren't allowing license renewals. You can receive support if you are a client of ours already, as per usual, and if you are not yet a customer then the subscription is a way to gain access to ALL (50? I don't quite know the exact number) of our add-ons AND get support so long as the subscription is active. Let me know if that makes sense.

Support was what was hurting, as every site has unique requests and needs. We were demanded to fix everyone's individual situations which we tried to do for a long time. For most it was fine but for hardcore admins we never could make em happy. So the cost of that is that we aren't offering our time in this way anymore for a small annual cost.

To be clear the issue is add-ons, themes we will still sell as those have been stable. Themes are far far far easier to support and manage, not even in the same order of magnitude of difficulty. So we will continue to support those publicly. This is almost entirely about the add-ons.